Av8orwife, Is there anyway you can join the U MEC? Your voice of reason has been just that on every post that I have read from you. A good salary and a renegotiated pension are better than a whole lot of nothing not to mention putting 30,000 others out of a job. I have great respect for you even if I'm not a U employee. Thanks for your post! Savy
Flyguy121,
What is funny is how the things change depending on the point of view. Right now I hear people teaming up against ALPA and the pilots to save their own job at the expense of someone else. Wether it is the pilots protecting their pension at the expenses of the 26000 employees or the 26000 other employees trying to sacrafice the 4000pilots so they can keep working. All I know is that at this point you should all be working together to get out of this. Shared Equal Sacrafice should be the mantra and not Feed the young to the gators to keep the ship from sinking.
Since I am not a U employee, I can take this attitude that many U employees are taking and twist it. By U entering in BK and selling themselves out to the lowest bidder and taking drastic pay cuts and changing pension plans and lowering prices, U and UAL are LOWERING the bar and other employees at other carriers want to know why doesn't U just "Sacrafice" themselves for the good of the industry so that we, The strong, can reduce capacity increase prices and keep our jobs! At least you will be able to be rehired somewhere else!
Now, I dont mean this literally, but see how you sound when you dont work together. Same picture, different brush!
Do you see how this looks? TCOEO------Take Care of Each Other!
What is funny is how the things change depending on the point of view. Right now I hear people teaming up against ALPA and the pilots to save their own job at the expense of someone else. Wether it is the pilots protecting their pension at the expenses of the 26000 employees or the 26000 other employees trying to sacrafice the 4000pilots so they can keep working. All I know is that at this point you should all be working together to get out of this. Shared Equal Sacrafice should be the mantra and not Feed the young to the gators to keep the ship from sinking.
Since I am not a U employee, I can take this attitude that many U employees are taking and twist it. By U entering in BK and selling themselves out to the lowest bidder and taking drastic pay cuts and changing pension plans and lowering prices, U and UAL are LOWERING the bar and other employees at other carriers want to know why doesn't U just "Sacrafice" themselves for the good of the industry so that we, The strong, can reduce capacity increase prices and keep our jobs! At least you will be able to be rehired somewhere else!
Now, I dont mean this literally, but see how you sound when you dont work together. Same picture, different brush!
Do you see how this looks? TCOEO------Take Care of Each Other!
Chip,
I appreciate the time and effort you put into keeping everyone informed. I also understand what is personally at stake.
But just a couple of points. I remember last fall receiving information that the pension would pretty much be gone if the Company filed Chapter 11 and that was a key point in getting concessions to avoid Bankruptcy. Well that did not work. So I kissed the pension good-bye in August.
I don't know why it is all of a sudden a big surprise that the pension will most likly be elimated and replaced with some other plan. By filing Chapter 11 that triggerd the Pension Guarantee Fund and all of those nasty funding rules.
Bottom line. A job that still pays 6 figures with a sh***ty pension is still better than unemployment. At least at this time. I don't know where all this united front is other than the agreement that it does make people angry, frustrated, etc..
I have not asked my husband the strike question. We have only discuseed the fact that he is better off with a job than without one. We have already come to terms with the fact that the good life once promised isn't going to happen. So we have gotton over it. Maybe you should too. Accept the things you cannont change, and change the things you can.-- that is where wisdom comes from.
So now it is back to 4,000 employees impacting the futures of the other 26,0000. Isn't it better for all 30,000 of the employees to be working and getting paid, than for a Chapter 7. What does that prove????
Do we forget to see the forest for the trees????
I know it would feel better in the short term to just burn it down. That is where anger is best played out. But once the trees are gone and you have no house, then can you say it was a good idea???
I know we can all learn how to say "would you like fries with that?"
Keep Smiling. Maintain a sense of humor. Expect the worse and Hope for the best and Maybe the cards that are dealt will fall somewhere in the middle.
I don't think Dave is out to screw the Company. I think he is doing what he can to fill the squares to get the loan and contine to operate. Those conditions were not set by Dave but by outside forces. It's Dave's job to meet the conditions to keep the Company operating. If you are pisss****sed off at anyone direct your anger at the ASTB or the Pension Fund or Bonner.... They have made the rules on how the Company will get their Money....
KJB
I appreciate the time and effort you put into keeping everyone informed. I also understand what is personally at stake.
But just a couple of points. I remember last fall receiving information that the pension would pretty much be gone if the Company filed Chapter 11 and that was a key point in getting concessions to avoid Bankruptcy. Well that did not work. So I kissed the pension good-bye in August.
I don't know why it is all of a sudden a big surprise that the pension will most likly be elimated and replaced with some other plan. By filing Chapter 11 that triggerd the Pension Guarantee Fund and all of those nasty funding rules.
Bottom line. A job that still pays 6 figures with a sh***ty pension is still better than unemployment. At least at this time. I don't know where all this united front is other than the agreement that it does make people angry, frustrated, etc..
I have not asked my husband the strike question. We have only discuseed the fact that he is better off with a job than without one. We have already come to terms with the fact that the good life once promised isn't going to happen. So we have gotton over it. Maybe you should too. Accept the things you cannont change, and change the things you can.-- that is where wisdom comes from.
So now it is back to 4,000 employees impacting the futures of the other 26,0000. Isn't it better for all 30,000 of the employees to be working and getting paid, than for a Chapter 7. What does that prove????
Do we forget to see the forest for the trees????
I know it would feel better in the short term to just burn it down. That is where anger is best played out. But once the trees are gone and you have no house, then can you say it was a good idea???
I know we can all learn how to say "would you like fries with that?"
Keep Smiling. Maintain a sense of humor. Expect the worse and Hope for the best and Maybe the cards that are dealt will fall somewhere in the middle.
I don't think Dave is out to screw the Company. I think he is doing what he can to fill the squares to get the loan and contine to operate. Those conditions were not set by Dave but by outside forces. It's Dave's job to meet the conditions to keep the Company operating. If you are pisss****sed off at anyone direct your anger at the ASTB or the Pension Fund or Bonner.... They have made the rules on how the Company will get their Money....
KJB
Using that logic, the pilots should eat whatever is shoved at them without complaint. The question is where you draw the line.
PITbull
Veteran
----------------
[/blockquote]
Let's put this in it's right perspective..."Dave is out to screw all the employees to save an airline, make a reputation for himself and collect lots of "doe" in the process for him and his "clan", period.
If your an employee who got to keep their job, and can still afford to work here, than just "dandy" for you. This management is not interested in you are pilots or pilots wives or anyone who stands in their way...they'll just plow you over.
[/blockquote]
Let's put this in it's right perspective..."Dave is out to screw all the employees to save an airline, make a reputation for himself and collect lots of "doe" in the process for him and his "clan", period.
If your an employee who got to keep their job, and can still afford to work here, than just "dandy" for you. This management is not interested in you are pilots or pilots wives or anyone who stands in their way...they'll just plow you over.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/26/2003 1
58 PM av8orwife wrote:
Chip,
I appreciate the time and effort you put into keeping everyone informed. I also understand what is personally at stake.
But just a couple of points. I remember last fall receiving information that the pension would pretty much be gone if the Company filed Chapter 11 and that was a key point in getting concessions to avoid Bankruptcy. Well that did not work. So I kissed the pension good-bye in August.
I don't know why it is all of a sudden a big surprise that the pension will most likly be elimated and replaced with some other plan. By filing Chapter 11 that triggerd the Pension Guarantee Fund and all of those nasty funding rules.
Bottom line. A job that still pays 6 figures with a sh***ty pension is still better than unemployment. At least at this time. I don't know where all this united front is other than the agreement that it does make people angry, frustrated, etc..
I have not asked my husband the strike question. We have only discuseed the fact that he is better off with a job than without one. We have already come to terms with the fact that the good life once promised isn't going to happen. So we have gotton over it. Maybe you should too. Accept the things you cannont change, and change the things you can.-- that is where wisdom comes from.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
THANK YOU!
----------------
On 1/26/2003 1
58 PM av8orwife wrote: Chip,
I appreciate the time and effort you put into keeping everyone informed. I also understand what is personally at stake.
But just a couple of points. I remember last fall receiving information that the pension would pretty much be gone if the Company filed Chapter 11 and that was a key point in getting concessions to avoid Bankruptcy. Well that did not work. So I kissed the pension good-bye in August.
I don't know why it is all of a sudden a big surprise that the pension will most likly be elimated and replaced with some other plan. By filing Chapter 11 that triggerd the Pension Guarantee Fund and all of those nasty funding rules.
Bottom line. A job that still pays 6 figures with a sh***ty pension is still better than unemployment. At least at this time. I don't know where all this united front is other than the agreement that it does make people angry, frustrated, etc..
I have not asked my husband the strike question. We have only discuseed the fact that he is better off with a job than without one. We have already come to terms with the fact that the good life once promised isn't going to happen. So we have gotton over it. Maybe you should too. Accept the things you cannont change, and change the things you can.-- that is where wisdom comes from.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
THANK YOU!
PITbull
Veteran
I beleive "some" Union leaders were ahead of this game. Speaking out and were critized on this "message board" by many. Now, Chip and 320 are saying that all of ALPA is in alliance and speaking for the first
time in UNISON.They are calling for "possible" job action to shut this co. down. (One issue, near and dear to the pilots now is worth EVERYONES JOB). Other union leaders were critizied for taking a "strong" position on the gutting of their agreements. But many pilots on this board "critized them and called them "troubled" and "chest thumpers".
Not saying I blame them for taking a "stance" for something; instead of forever bending over and over.
All I am saying is "welcome ALPA to "our world". Finally you figured out with this "management team" is all about.
They will terminate pensions, and the money that was for the "defined plans" WILL GO RIGHT INTO THEIR POCKETS COME 2004, 2005, 2006 ETC... We'll see how collect you all are.
THE WAKEUP CALL FOR ALL OF LABOR WAS A MONTH AGO;hard to get support for a cause now.
time in UNISON.They are calling for "possible" job action to shut this co. down. (One issue, near and dear to the pilots now is worth EVERYONES JOB). Other union leaders were critizied for taking a "strong" position on the gutting of their agreements. But many pilots on this board "critized them and called them "troubled" and "chest thumpers".
Not saying I blame them for taking a "stance" for something; instead of forever bending over and over.
All I am saying is "welcome ALPA to "our world". Finally you figured out with this "management team" is all about.
They will terminate pensions, and the money that was for the "defined plans" WILL GO RIGHT INTO THEIR POCKETS COME 2004, 2005, 2006 ETC... We'll see how collect you all are.
THE WAKEUP CALL FOR ALL OF LABOR WAS A MONTH AGO;hard to get support for a cause now.
Technical question:
?Is it accurate to say that ALPA MEC negotiated FAE down to 50% and now the company is offering a combination of PBGC pension and new funding to equal 40% if FAE?
Again this is a question, not an assertion, everyone.
good luck to all.
?Is it accurate to say that ALPA MEC negotiated FAE down to 50% and now the company is offering a combination of PBGC pension and new funding to equal 40% if FAE?
Again this is a question, not an assertion, everyone.
good luck to all.
Technical question #2.
I realized that I was assuming that
FAE= final average earnings (sometimes I forget that I'm just guessing)
good luck to all.
I realized that I was assuming that
FAE= final average earnings (sometimes I forget that I'm just guessing)
good luck to all.
Let's hope they negotiate upward some and not get a legislated solution. If that happens every pension will become underfunded and all will say they merit an exception. This company is underfunded and bankrupt not just underfunded. Savy
Formatman
Member
Chip...let's suppose that before you (the pilot group) had given anything back, the company had already taken your pension. How much would you be willing to give under those circumstances? Kind'a makes all those remarks that you made awhile back about the CWA doing whatever necessary to keep the company alive seem a little ridiculous right now, doesn't it? It's a little bit different when you're the one being asked to sacrifice for everyone else, isn't it? You know as well as I do that "super Dave" knew when he stepped foot on the property that the "real" problem was the pilot's pension. He just used the situation to take everything he could from all of the other groups and now he's finally gotten to the meat of the problem. Time to take one for the team, pal.
pitguy
Veteran
Is it possible for ALPA and US Airways to work out their differnces without these opinions from Chip? Is it possible that Dave is doing all that he can toward the best for US Airways and it's dependants, while bending as necessary to the pressures beyond his control? Will, I be better off with my paycheck Friday, accompanied by benefits, than if chapter 7 occurs on Thursday? Do I think it unfair that US Airways pilots will likely suffer a reduction in their huge pensions...., hmmmnnnnn.., I got to think more on that one! Maybe more opinionated information suggesting other pensions will suffer the wrath of ALPA will help me decide on this one?
I agree with what av8orwife has said, with the exception that my appreciation for Chip's post are limited to his cut and paste of pertinent articles. I question whether his attempts to enlighten go beyond an overall desire to sway others in support of his own self interest.
I agree with what av8orwife has said, with the exception that my appreciation for Chip's post are limited to his cut and paste of pertinent articles. I question whether his attempts to enlighten go beyond an overall desire to sway others in support of his own self interest.
A320 Driver
Veteran
I never called for any job action. I just said the pilot group is angry for being had.
A320 Driver
A320 Driver
So no one is bullchipping anyone here. There will be no job action.
- Get real and start 'earning' your place here.
- Live to fight another day.
- If you don't like it quit. Remember 'you' have so much employment potential.
- You are not voting anyhow.
----------------
[/blockquote]
------------------------------------------------------------------
pitguy, did you miss the zero tolerance meetings?
- Get real and start 'earning' your place here.
- Live to fight another day.
- If you don't like it quit. Remember 'you' have so much employment potential.
- You are not voting anyhow.
----------------
[/blockquote]
------------------------------------------------------------------
pitguy, did you miss the zero tolerance meetings?
Similar threads
