Pilot Pension - Where we go from here...

Mr. Planes comments,
This is our fight and ours alone. What anyone other than the U pilots think of it is irrelavent.

Tug replies,
It may be your fight but its our lively hood your gambling with. If you don't like the way Dave's treating you than the answer to YOUR problem is obvious. Quit and move on!

Best of luck

CaptChill & Retread are working the board like wind-up artists. Perhaps UInvestor in drag?[BR][BR]Ignore them!
On 1/27/2003 3:25:13 PM CaptChill wrote:

On 1/27/2003 3:06:56 PM tug_slug wrote:

If you don't like the actions of this pilot group, then why don't you just quit and move on to greener pastures... Are you suggesting we should give up our collective bargaining? Do you think the pilots are insulated from this???... This is not a hasty decision... it's been difficult as hell... But ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!.... The company has been given ample recommendations from ALPA and it's members for ways for Dave and Company to work this out. We had an opportunity through legislative help... Thank you Dave and Company for torpedoing all of our efforts in that regard... It's our livelyhood too... just in case you haven't noticed! So Mr. IAM member... why are you still driving tugs when Mr. Bronner states it's a waste of money and completely not necessary?



I'll let you in on a little secret.

My family invested very heavily in property some 40 years ago here on the West coast. If you know anything about property out here Im sure you can imagine what its worth today. To say Im fortunate is an understatement.

Should US Air close their doors I won't have to worry about my mortgage payment or some of the other things your sweating about right now. To be honest with I dont worry about those things now why would I worry about them if U survives or not?

When I turn 50 (Im currently 43) I plan on retiring at which time my wife and I will be living a life that up until recently you thought was in the bag. You see my friend my future has already been taken care of.

Quit?? Why would I want to? Worry about my future? Why should I have to??
Can you say the same?
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On 1/27/2003 3:37:47 PM mlt wrote:

CaptChill & Retread are working the board like wind-up artists. Perhaps UInvestor in drag?

Ignore them!

No, actually I have been quiet for awhile. After reading some of these pilot bashing post I dedcided to go on the offense. As usual it is okay to disrespect the mean old pilot but it hits the fan when we give it back. Every post of mine is a response to some trash.I have always said let each employee group handle their own problem. I am no fan of Chip and wish he would keep quiet. I give the same attitude that is given.
>>Oh, lets not forget about the LUMP SUM OPTION OF $1 MILLION DOLLARS that was offered to pilots until the recent concessions.

I keep thinking that the pilots getting the fund, instead of the PBGC has got to be in the mix, as you illustrate. I have no guess about the actuarial implications, especially considering the upfront demographics.

But you stated something of interest. I have been assuming that those that have already received a lump sum, purchased (or sold) an annuity from a third party?? Is this true? If so, wouldn't all those that have already gotten a lump sum not exposed to any risk of repayment?
I question the wisdom of letting the company or the PBGC terminate the pilots, or any other pension plan. If we are confident that the primary funding issues are depressed stock prices and 41 year low interest rates, is it not foolish to give the PBGC a windfall in the form of the assets in the plans? Would it not be in our best interest to distribute the assets in the plans to the plan members and reap the (hopefully) future growth potential for ourselves? I realize that those on the non-lump sum plan that have not yet had annuities purchased for them need to be considered, and that those very close to retirement may need an adjustment. However, I just went through the 2002 pilot seniority list and roughly calculated the number of retirement years for the pilots in each year group, summed them all, and divided that into 1.2 Billion. I excluded those not vested (less than 5 years). It came to about 90,000 retirement years. So call it about $13,000 per year when you divide that out. So help me out here and check my math. If I'm way off base please comment good or bad. It seems to me that 15 or 20 years worth of the assets with hopes of growth is better that a PBGC minimum, and again I realize the extremely senior may not be made whole. Couple in the suppossed 300 to 400 million the company has stated they will fund/year (if you can believe them) and it could add up. I claim no accounting experience or pension experience, so let's be clear on that. Thank you for your comments in advance.

Once again... I've been misquoted... what I said... is that if everyone gave relatively to the amount given by the pilot group ... read percentage-wise... And if you think that the average pilot here was earning $300k per year... you are totally misinformed...
On 1/27/2003 1:11:33 PM mrplanes wrote:

I posted this under the what is the solution thread:

The question was: What is the solution? Here is the answer:

Dave only has to commit to the pilots that our pension BENEFITS will be no LESS than what he agreed to in LOA 84. Regardless of whether some comes from the PBGC and some from the company. And basically that benefit is very simple. We have earned and will be paid a pension benefit of 50% of our FAE. He agreed to it in December. He has no reason NOT to agree to it now. If it worked then. It must work now. Nothing has changed over that time period. That is how you solve this problem. It's very simple. He lives up to his committment and the problem is solved.


We don't want anyone's sympathy. We are not interested in your retirement benefits, pay, work rules or anything else. What we demand is what Dave agreed to in December. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less. The lump is gone. We agreed to it. So did Dave. 65% of FAE is gone. We agreed to it. So did Dave. Now we fully expect him to live up to his end of the bargain which is spelled out above. whine about pilots all you want. We know where our line is drawn. Plain and simple. This problem is history if Dave does what he already said he would do. I happen to think that he will. But if he does not, everything we have given to this point is moot. He will be finding another place to work just like all of us. That is the harsh reality. We lived up to our end of the bargain. Now it is Dave's turn. I, for one, am done explaining what will happen. I suggest that all pilots do the same. This is our fight and ours alone. What anyone other than the U pilots think of it is irrelavent.



I happen to agree with you! It's time a union collectively stood up to this management. Taking the "view" as a unionist, and a group that has a defined pension, the pilots did give way more then what the co. needed. And, the pilots agreed to help this company at all cost to themselves to SAVE their pensions. Can't bad mouth any group for that. All this, outside of "section 6" to boot. I know you do not concern yourself with what other groups think, but, this "chest thumping" unionist will support the pilots, cause folks we will be next. Rest assured, this management team is watching this board, and they love to see one group go against another. Their contempt "breeds" on our blantant division, and the "union busters" put a check mark in that column.

At this point, we are all looking at a 5% reduction in the next couple months with this IRAQI situation, with those kinds of reduced wages from all groups, I do NOT believe this company will have the CONTRIBUTION PROBLEMS THEY CLAIM THEY WILL HAVE TODAY. The world will not stop if USA goes to war, and businesses will run and people will fly. THAT IS HOW OUR COUNTRY'S ECONOMY RUNS! kEEP THIS IN MIND, just a modest improvement to our economy...CHANGES EVERYTHING!
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/27/2003 8:38:09 PM CaptChill wrote:
[P]MrA...[BR][BR]Once again... I've been misquoted... what I said... is that if everyone gave relatively to the amount given by the pilot group ... read percentage-wise... And if you think that the average pilot here was earning $300k per year... you are totally misinformed... [/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][SPAN class=BodyFont]CaptChill,[BR] Below is the quote where I was able to come up with the figure I quoted. If in fact the cut was $138,000 in pay and benefits and it represents 46 percent of a pilots total pay and benefits the figure BEFORE the cuts was in fact $300,000. If you take $138,000 and divide it by 0.46 you will get $300,000. Another way to do it is multiply $300,000 by 0.46 and you get $138,000.[BR]Perhaps you had no idea the average pilot at U was earning that kind of money, I don't know or maybe, perhaps, the ALPA group didn't want the other employees to know what kind of money the average pilot was earning. Either way the figures came from the ALPA union and Capt. Munn in his post. If these figures are in fact incorrect as you say then perhaps the Senate Appropriations Committee should conduct an investigation into Mr. Woerths statement to determine if he in fact lied in his testimony to them. If the figures are incorrect I stand corrected but it sure does shine a new light on the credibility of ALPA if those figures are wrong doesn't it? [BR]Percentages can be skewed any way the person figuring them wants to skew them but one thing is for certain and that is the gate/ticketing/ramp agents have given just as much as any other group over the years if not more. They don't have a pension, it was sacrificed years ago under another regime and the cries from that injustice never made it out of the break room because they were only agents. I think it stinks that the pension issue is before the ALPA group. I think you've been wronged but if the money isn't there it isn't there. If it is, take it in the form you can get it and manage it yourself. Best of luck to you.[BR][BR]MrA[BR][BR][STRONG][EM]The average pilot pay and benefit cut is $138,000 per year. ALPA President Duane Woerth told the Senate Appropriations Committee on January 14 the average pilot concession represents 46 percent of a pilot’s total pay and benefits. [BR][BR]The average non-pilot pay and benefit cut is $16,133 per year.[BR][BR]The average pilot pay and benefit cut is about $122,000 per year more than the average non-pilot employee pay and benefit cut. [BR][BR][BR]Chip [BR][/EM][/STRONG][BR][/SPAN][/P]

Unlike you... most do not have that good fortune... including myself...

But I'm happy for you and for your family... At least you are not subjected to the angst that many are relative to their careers, livelihoods and retirement... and management's total lack of regard for same and the agreements they have made. So I now understand your perspective completely.
MrA... The key phrase is "pay and benefits" not just pay... So can we have a definition of benefits???... Your guess is as good as mine... Do you think that some/many of these benefits were enjoyed by the other employee groups... So to say that the "average pilot" was earning $300k per year I still believe to be inaccurate...

To further say that numbers can be skewed anyway is 100% accurate... that's precisely why the pilot group has such a beef with management... Number-crunchers and financial analysts can produce whatever results they're looking for... a la Enron, Worldcom... and the likes...

People within the pilot group have been asking for these numbers for weeks on end from management for an independent unbiased analysis... Has this been received to date?... not to my knowledge... but I'm not an insider...
just a working stiff... that has been skewered, and fried... and totally distrustful and disgusted with this "management".
On 1/27/2003 12:50:37 PM A320 Driver wrote:

We gave twice just like you did. We are sacrificing just like you are. We had a deal with the company just like you do. They are breaking their word and the deal. We will deal with them accordingly.

I hope this works out, but we will not take this lying down again.

A320 Driver

Well I am afraid it will have to be standing up then.

A320...thanks for being a real gentleman in these dire and desperate times, it speaks volumes.

Chip what has ALPA done for the group? The guys in charge have proven time and again that senority rules. forget the junior pilots. The band o brothers in charge have brought us

1.) B-Scale again let the juniors pay
2.) Sacrifice 15 year pilots to save a pension
3.) no support for downgraded pilots

the current ALPA leadership has proven gravely inept. While i admire their dedication at keeping their paychecks rolling in they have not looked back on all the casualties of their bad decisions.