Pilot Whose Gun Went Off Back on Job

[700UW]

story

 

[redheadtempe33]

story

From the story it does sound like it was an accident. As long as he doesn't bring his gun back I wouldn't have a huge objection.

 

[redheadtempe33]

Would not have happened had he not had it out of it's holster in flight. USAPA is making this clown out to be some kind of misunderstood hero. Guess this shows you how desparate USAPA is for a win.

What a joke.

Driver :angry:

Are they supposed to be holstered at all times? (Barring a highjacking). I wonder why he had it out in the first place?

 

[A320 Driver]

Are they supposed to be holstered at all times? (Barring a highjacking). I wonder why he had it out in the first place?[


Should not have happened...

 

[Ttailfan]

Careless gun handling has nothing to do with his skill as an airline pilot. I have no issue with his reinstatement as a pilot.

Regarding his ability to possess a firearm in the course of his duties...well, that's another matter.

Guns don't "just go off." He mishandled the gun in some way, whether it was poor trigger discipline (I.E. keeping his finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard) or he somehow made the firing pin touch off the round by hitting the weapon against something...who knows. None of us were there and none of us examined the weapon in question.

But I can say that I would strongly recommend the removal of his license to carry that weapon onboard an aircraft pending a thorough investigation and remedial training and qualification. And maybe even then I'd still question it.

But my money is on poor trigger discipline.

 

[ggiby]

story

I have no problem with him coming back to work...
However, I have one big question?? It does not say in the article...
Will he still be a FFDO???

I sure hope he did not get to keep that right???

Anyone know?

 

[Richard]

I just deleted a post trying to make this thread another USAPA dispute thread. Stay on topic or we have no problem closing it.

Thank you.

 

[Justme]

Last sentence:

"Mohr said Langenhahn will no longer participate in the program"

 

[HPDriver]

Careless gun handling has nothing to do with his skill as an airline pilot. I have no issue with his reinstatement as a pilot.

So if the bullet had ricocheted and hit the FO you'd still feel the same way?

Of what if I put my foot through the PFD? Its OK because it has nothing to do with my flying skill?

The Captain should still be on the street. He has no business being back on the job. His incompetence and inability to follow SOP cause tens of thousands of dollars in damage.

 

[Ttailfan]

So if the bullet had ricocheted and hit the FO you'd still feel the same way?

Of what if I put my foot through the PFD? Its OK because it has nothing to do with my flying skill?

The Captain should still be on the street. He has no business being back on the job. His incompetence and inability to follow SOP cause tens of thousands of dollars in damage.

I totally agree with you that his actions were wreckless and he cost the airline big dollars for repairs.

That said. Skills required to fly an aircraft are NOT the same as the skills to properly handle a gun. Personally, I have had doubts about the training of the FFDO program. These are pilots being placed in the roll of "enforcer" and have not had a law enforcement type background to support it. Many pilots are capable of managing the resonsiblity of a weapon, especially those that come from the military background. But guns are NOT for everyone.

I work as a reserve law enforcement officer and have for 13 years. I have to demonstrate proficiency annually at the minimum and have countless training sessions on tactics and concepts. We use training guns, we use simunition, we have trick targets on the range, etc. This is a continuous process and you experience it the same in your 25th year as you do in your rookie year. It NEVER stops.

My skill, or lack their of, with a firearm does NOT reflect on any other aspect of my job. If I don't qualify with my handgun, they don't make me surrender my drivers license because I am clearly not responsible with things that can cause the death of someone. The same with the pilot. His ability to operate the aircraft he's qualified to fly (and must requalify for over and over again every year) in accordance with all FAA, ATC and company regulations and rules has no bearing on suitability of carrying a firearm. That is a separate issue.

Just like if I shoot a criminal and my actions are later determined to be "careless", that doesn't mean I surrender my ability to drive a car because my actions with a gun prove I cannot be trusted to operate a motor vehicle safely. Yes, I'd lose my job, and likely face criminal charges...but guess what? That's because my ability to do my job requires my proficiency with that firearm. A prerequisite for a pilot's license is NOT suitable firearms handling and proficiency. It is how well he manages the systems of the aircraft, his knowledge of and adhearance to the regulations that govern that flight and the company policies that he is to operate under.

It is to that end that I say I have no issue with his being reinstated as a flight deck officer. I do, however, have considerable reservations regarding his suitability as a FFDO.

A passenger has no knowledge of whether the two people sitting in that flight deck have weapons or not. But you can be assured that they are both licensed pilots. But do you know their skill level? No. Not until you leave the ground and return to it safely.

While it is true you must be a licensed flight deck officer to become a FFDO...you are not required to be a FFDO to be able to operate the aircraft. But one thing I think they should incorporate into the sim/check rides is recurrent training on proper firearm handling and usage if you are a FFDO. This incident proves that out.

Just my opinion...

 

[A320 Driver]

So if the bullet had ricocheted and hit the FO you'd still feel the same way?

Of what if I put my foot through the PFD? Its OK because it has nothing to do with my flying skill?

The Captain should still be on the street. He has no business being back on the job. His incompetence and inability to follow SOP cause tens of thousands of dollars in damage.

Deleted

 

[ebwgs]

Good for him getting his job back. Although I've never liked the idea of guns in the cockpit--or guns period--I'm happy that this man, who made an honest, albeit potentially serious mistake, is able to resume his career. Welcome back.

 

[hp_fa]

Allow me to be a contrarian. My reasoning has nothing to do with East v. West, but rather judgment.

A pilot's duties require judgment and someone who has shown really bad judgment, especially in the work environment, should not be a pilot. This is the same poor judgment equation that was present in the case of the AWA pilots in Miami and a number of other occurrences elsewhere.

Absent any proof that the gun magically fired itself during descent to CLT I think this guy showed bad judgment in this incident and should not be flying an airplane operating under Part 121.

 

[Ttailfan]

Good for him getting his job back. Although I've never liked the idea of guns in the cockpit--or guns period--I'm happy that this man, who made an honest, albeit potentially serious mistake, is able to resume his career. Welcome back.

What's the problem with guns? They are nothing but an inanimate object...the same as your car, a baseball bat, your TV remote, a case of beer, etc.

Guns have a purpose and a place. They are a tool. In the hands of a skilled shooter, they can used to perform incredible displays of talent and skill in competition. They can be used to bring food to the table. They can be used to protect your life from something (or someone) wishing to do you harm.

But they can also be a dangerous thing when in the hand of the inexperienced or fool hearty. And so can your car, a baseball bat, that case of beer. And the list can go on.

If you don't like guns, that is, of course, your choice. If you are uncomfortable around them, its best to avoid them. But a gun, by itself, is nothing more then a paperweight.

In the hands of a responsbile gun owner/handler, a gun is a perfectly harmless object until the moment that deadly force is justifed. I carry a gun almost every time I leave my house, but being an LEO, that is not a shocking thing. It is loaded with a full magazine capacity and yes, one in the pipe...it is locked and loaded, ready for business if the need arises. But guess what, especially with my off duty/personal carry guns...about the only time leave the holster is when I clean them. If I don't need to have it out, I don't. But that doesn't mean that I'm not sitting with it on my hip in the car next to you at the traffic light, in the booth at the restaurant, at the movie theater, the local mall, any outdoor event I attend, etc. And you will never know I have it with me. That's called "being responsible." Not only am I handling the weapon responibly, but I am taking responsibility for my own safety. Not because I'm a LEO, but because I'm a citizen of the United States and its my Constitutional right to do so. I will not take action with my sidearm unless there is no other option. But it is not the gun taking that action...it is me.

If a pilot is approved to carry a firearm on the flight deck, as long as they are properly trained, I have no issue with it. In fact, I work with 3 airline pilots at my LEO job. I can assure you, they are ALL FFDOs.


The problem in this instance was that the pilot mishandled the weapon, in a manner we are not totally privy to, but clearly with an unsafe result. It was not the gun that was the problem...it was the person holding/handling it. And that boils down to whether the person was properly trained, properly skilled and had the right mindset to be in possession of that firearm.

I don't question their ability to safely and properly fly the airraft...but I do question their ability to safely handle a firearm.

 

[boeingplt]

So if the bullet had ricocheted and hit the FO you'd still feel the same way?

Of what if I put my foot through the PFD? Its OK because it has nothing to do with my flying skill?

The Captain should still be on the street. He has no business being back on the job. His incompetence and inability to follow SOP cause tens of thousands of dollars in damage.

You're just full of sunshine aren't you?