Possible Chapter 11 For Delta?

[firstamendment]

World Traveler

Please do not try to "shame" me on here. It will not work. I did not shame you. I respect your opinion as you should mine. I do believe I stated more times than none that this was one man's opinion. You decided to run with your emotional baggage.

My point is that you came across, whether intentional or not, as not understanding that the Delta pilots are in a critical position with their company and they need only look to my company to see what happens when you give in to the company.

As for unions, i didn't state whether I liked or disliked them, BUT, I have my share of Delta friends who will be the first to tell you, friend, that it is the threat of unionizing that gives them those wonderful wages. The f/a's I know are very aware that that same source can immediately CUT their wages. I am sure DAL f/a's are fine employees. Again, I never cut the fine folks at DAL down.

As far as uniforms, I find it laughable that you would take one crew for your opinion. Have you ever seen a sweety fella in those DAL blue shirts? In otherwords, while I am MORE than ready to see a change in our uniform, I, friend, keep mine clean, pressed, and shirt tucked in, as do most.

Finally, airlines do need to spend money. They do it all the time, yes. But when you start crying Chapter 11, yes, the spending stops until someone sees where cuts really should be made.

WT, why all the aggression? I wasn't attacking you. If you thought so, well, that's your issue but to be appalled ? Sorry, buddy, I don't personally know you. Just know your opinions are always heard, accepted, and yes, respected, but when you goes off on me, I will call you on it..just like others have done for me. Nobody likes to be right more than ol First, but I try my hardest to not abuse others..God that's hard cause I too like a good fight. But we must play fair. Have a good one.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

IMHO Delta's non-union employees have before them a dramatic opportunity.

Instead of pay reductions they should enhance productivity and allow normal attritiion to reduce the headcounts.

Demonstrate that cost-cutting isn't just all about reduced pay & benefits.

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, labor has got to realize that management in has the upper hand. For the moment.

All of that blather coming from unionized legacy carriers about achieving cost parity with the LLCs is folly.

Delta alone has the real opportunity to do it.

 

[WorldTraveler]

1st,
You did a fine job on your original posting until we got to this point:

"I just find it laughable that you haven't done your homework."

Stay away from inflammatory remarks like that and we'll get along just fine. You have valid opinions as do other people. You have no idea what kind of knowledge people bring to this forum and without developing stronger relationships, you should err on the side of assuming that the posters have credible, legitimate information.

Now back on the ranch...

Luv2fly,
Your assertion that further pilot job cuts will be necessary is troubling. I'm not sure how you could come up w/ the facts you present, however, since Delta management and ALPA have been very tight-lipped during negotiations. There is no doubt, however, that unless DL grows dramatically, wage concessions are going to have to largely come through salary reductions instead of productivity improvements. We can all hope for the latter but Delta pilots would be extraordinarily blessed and unique in the industry if they walk away from this whole process w/ their whole pre 9/11 workforce intact and only 30% pay concessions, leaving them still paid well above average.

 

[luv2fly]

Luv2fly,
Your assertion that further pilot job cuts will be necessary is troubling. I'm not sure how you could come up w/ the facts you present, however, since Delta management and ALPA have been very tight-lipped during negotiations. There is no doubt, however, that unless DL grows dramatically, wage concessions are going to have to largely come through salary reductions instead of productivity improvements. We can all hope for the latter but Delta pilots would be extraordinarily blessed and unique in the industry if they walk away from this whole process w/ their whole pre 9/11 workforce intact and only 30% pay concessions, leaving them still paid well above average.

Luv2fly,
Your assertion that further pilot job cuts will be necessary is troubling. I'm not sure how you could come up w/ the facts you present, however, since Delta management and ALPA have been very tight-lipped during negotiations.


Not my assertion. These numbers came directly from a union representative. As I mentioned earlier, Jerry himself conceded these future furloughs would be part of the package. ALPA lounge shows and Jerry's roadshows are the source of my information. It doesn't get much more direct than that.

We can all hope for the latter but Delta pilots would be extraordinarily blessed and unique in the industry if they walk away from this whole process w/ their whole pre 9/11 workforce intact and only 30% pay concessions, leaving them still paid well above average.

I am not quite sure what you mean when you refer to having our whole pre 9-11 workforce intact. Perhaps you could clarify.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I am not quite sure what you mean when you refer to having our whole pre 9-11 workforce intact. Perhaps you could clarify.

Most other network carriers will not be rehiring their entire pre 9/11 pilot roster any time soon, if ever. Given that the no-furlough clause is essentially being restored now that the pilot rehirings are occurring, it may be overly optimistic for Delta pilots to think they will end up with all of their colleagues rehired.

Again, while a union representative may have made statements to the effect that there will be further furloughs, they are not permitted under the present contract absent a force majeure will have to be a part of a new contract; none of the specific terms of which have been made public. It would be far preferable for Delta to dramatically grow to minimize the possibility of pilot furloughs but their ability to grow is closely tied to the specific wage and benefit concessions that are given. In other words, if the pilots want to bring back some of their colleagues, it is to their advantage to cut deep enough to allow the company to grow. At this point, Delta appears to have determined the amount of cuts that it wants and will either get them outside or inside of bankruptcy. ALPA's part is probably only to figure how to give Delta the costs they want.

 

[luv2fly]

Again, while a union representative may have made statements to the effect that there will be further furloughs, they are not permitted under the present contract absent a force majeure will have to be a part of a new contract; none of the specific terms of which have been made public.

I did not mean to infer that any such furloughs would be allowed under the current contract. They are part of what Delta is requesting. Delta is also requesting the the no furlough clause be stricken from the contract which would keep the 1060 current furloughs and allow for future furloughs. This information has been made available to the pilot group.
The pilot group would hardly remain intact if these concessions were agreed to.

 

[JFK777]

Pilots its time to give up the platnuim pay checks.

 

[Segue]

As long as DL has cash, the pilots will drag their feet until all the cash is gone. Its a shame, because that will mean DL will have to go even deeper into debt once they do look to exit from C11 and every stakeholder from CSRs to stock holders will be worse off as a result.

 

[LiveInAHotel]

It was all over the news last night about Delta and US Airways (for the second time) filing BK. Delta's stock is at an all time low $5.10 per share and that's scary. Funny thing is, Delta is recalling 130 more flight attendants on 5/24/2004 to NYC. If they're that close to BK why bother? They send 767's over the pond with 6 flight attendants all the time.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

It was all over the news last night about Delta and US Airways (for the second time) filing BK. Delta's stock is at an all time low $5.10 per share and that's scary. Funny thing is, Delta is recalling 130 more flight attendants on 5/24/2004 to NYC. If they're that close to BK why bother? They send 767's over the pond with 6 flight attendants all the time.

Hotel

As in good times, DL is also a interesting "case study", in bad times(like now, for DL)

They're the third largest airline in the US, and only have one union.
They own there own regional carrier(comair), which has a great route system.
And yes, their pilots are, the highest paid, but their cost's could be a LOT lower, because the majority of their employees are NON UNION.

(I'm NOT suggesting DL "cannibalize" their Non Union folks. I'm just stateing the fact that
A. They could,
and
B. If DL did, the non union folks would only have their individual work groups to BLAME, for constantly rejecting organization).

I guess WHAT I'm saying is that I can't get a "good read" on what is DL's "big picture", in the near future.

?????

NH/BB's

 

[LiveInAHotel]

I can't get a "good read" on what is DL's "big picture", in the near future.

Since we don't drink the Delta Sour Grape Kool-Aid, we will never understand their deal. The DL f/a's are all a bunch of suckers who believe anything Sharon Wibben tells them. A woman from Xerox, with no airline experience gets hired as VP of Flight Services and she only has flown 1 trip since she was hired. She was able to pick her trip (FCO) and bring her family along with her positive space in business class.

This woman needs to go in a big way. She is Jane Allen's twin and that's pathetic!

What will the non-union folks due when the s**t really hits the fan at DL? Empty out their wallets to save the not so all mighty widget? They will have NO choice as to how much they will give up.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Since we don't drink the Delta Sour Grape Kool-Aid, we will never understand their deal. The DL f/a's are all a bunch of suckers who believe anything Sharon Wibben tells them. A woman from Xerox, with no airline experience gets hired as VP of Flight Services and she only has flown 1 trip since she was hired. She was able to pick her trip (FCO) and bring her family along with her positive space in business class.

This woman needs to go in a big way. She is Jane Allen's twin and that's pathetic!

What will the non-union folks due when the s**t really hits the fan at DL? Empty out their wallets to save the not so all mighty widget? They will have NO choice as to how much they will give up.

I'm no expert, on these boards, just another "monday morning QB".

I think I may have posted the following scenario's on this board, at an earlier date. If so, I apologise for being redundent.

My best quess at this point for DL/"Grinch"-stein, is:

Scenario;

A. "Non" BK-11.

Threaten DALPA, right up to the 11th. hour, take as much as DALPA(at "that" point in time), is willing to give up, switch a TON of mainline to comair, and "cornhole" all the rest of DL employees !!!

(As DALPA members have consistantly pointed out on this board, It's going to take a lot more than DALPA, to turn this "ship" around.)



B. BK-11.

Threaten DALPA right to the last minute, and then make good on his threats and file.
Still shift a ton of mainline to comair, and emerge with a DL that even the DL employees don't recognize.

I'm still stickin' with "A".

NH/BB's

ps.

What I think "might" happen, and what I personally "hope" happens, are not necessarily the same thing.

Good luck to ALL at DL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[local 12 proud]

sadly NHBB your scenario will likely occur, all the majors have chosen to drastically alter the labor contracts and it's hard to believe DELTA will not follow this trend!........best of luck to my delta brother's & sister's

 

[aislehopper]

The DL f/a's are all a bunch of suckers who believe anything Sharon Wibben tells them.

What will the non-union folks due when the s**t really hits the fan at DL? Empty out their wallets to save the not so all mighty widget? They will have NO choice as to how much they will give up.

Gunga Din:

It seems that Mic__ is not the only Delta flight attendant that gets you all hot an' bothered. You seem to insult us as a group whenever possible. Does being off flight status make you that frustrated?

You mentioned us taking paycuts. This brings us back to an interesting question.

Your union saved you from paycuts how?

 

[LiveInAHotel]

The difference is between Delta nd AA is that we get to VOTE on our paycuts!! Unlike you at Delta, they justy take what they feel like.

On May 1, 2004, we got a payraise unlike you at DL who didn't get one for the second year in row. I hope your pilots put you guys in Chapter 11, it will serve you right not voting YES for the AFA.