Proof that UA''s competitors fear our restructuring efforts

[UnitedChicago]

wts54:

First of all, I NEVER claimed it climbed a few thousand feet. Where did I say that?

Now let me teach you a lesson about credible information. I was going to give you Jim Hall's phone number from the NTSB, but I changed my mind.

I found the following quote on the NTSB website: Officially, the streak was attributed to Flight 800 in flames, as it climbed into the air on an eastern track.

Below is the full text. So wts54...I've provided you with credible information. From the NTSB - I think even you would agree that they are the most credible source for aircraft accident data. That's if untied.com doesn't branch off into accident investigations.

SO...yes the aircraft did climb with the nose section gone. Hope you learned a lesson on the power of credible information as opposed to personal opinion/rumor.

NTSB Conclusions

The NTSB concluded that the observed rising streak was Flight 800 after it exploded. Officially, the streak was attributed to Flight 800 in flames, as it climbed into the air on an eastern track. The cause of the initial explosion aboard Flight 800 has not been determined, but federal investigators believe it involved the presence of volatile vapors in the jetliner's center fuel tank.[12]

NTSB Witness Group Chairman Dr. David Mayer explained the above crash scenario during a presentation at an August 2000 NTSB hearing on the crash. Dr. Mayer said that most of the 258 streak of light accounts were consistent with the above scenario and that fifty-six were not.[2]

 

[UnitedChicago]

wts54:

This is my final comment on this issue. I apologize to the entire board for dragging this out and from diverting from the real topic: restructuring UAL.

Do you really think that had TWA800 been shot down that the hundreds and hundreds of officials that investigated this accident (government and civilian alike) would all keep quiet?

You obviously place no value on credible sources of information. Keep reading your third-rate sources. I recommend posting on Yahoo...I think you'd be more welcome there.

Over and out once and for all.

 

[Bob Owens]

United Chicago;
There was a terrorist attach that caused more casualties than this once before. It happened in Bhopal.
The state government of Madhya Pradesh reported that approximately 3,800 persons died, 40 persons experienced permanent total disability, and 2,680 persons experienced permanent partial disability. Studies by India's Council of Medical Research indicate that severe injury to the lung is limited to a small percentage of the population and there is no serious residual eye disease. Medical studies have shown that massive, one-time exposure to MIC has not caused cancer, birth defects, or other delayed manifestations of medical effects.

While not nearly as spectacular as Sept 11 is was even more deadly.

UA recently give pilots increases (a mistake...i know...thanks goodwin) and was close to an industry leading iam contract. Where's AA? They were just beginning to negotiate with their pilots and their machinists. It was bad timing for UA.

AA does not have the IAM. They have some machinists but they are included in the M&R group. The bargaining unit as a whole cant be described as machinists. Check your facts.


So I strongly disagree that the ATSB loan program was a bad mistake. I certainly also disagree that granting a loan to UA will delay an industry recovery.


The ATSB was not a mistake for the Airlines, it allows them to defer blame and discontent to the ATSB while the airline and its stockholders get to enjoy a 7% ROI off their labor. The ATSB is a scam, being run by the Federal Reserve Board and President Bush. Its goal is to lower wages and enrich stockholders. If you vote Yes you will help them in succeeding in their plan. But then again you dont get to vote do you?

 

[Bob Owens]

United Chicago says;
It's funny if you compare this airline crisis with the last one (circa 1991-1993). There were doomsday scenarios. All of the majors can't compete against SWA. United prepared a drastic strategy of spinning off the domestic operations intwo 2-3 geographic based carriers that would be low cost and feed UA's international operation.

Then the ESOP proceeded, the economy recovered and everyone biz fares increased.

The economy will recover eventually and will prosper. I know we can't necessarily expect the same boom in terms of biz travel...but it will return.

United will be well on the way towards restructuring. When the economy recovers, biz travel will return. Revenue will be back.

Yes yes but all the contract employees will still be making concessionary wages until 2008. You advocate them accepting cuts but are your concessions locked in till 2008? How much do you make again? Oh yea thats rude but its not rude to tell others to accept 6 years of pay cuts when you can get a raise at any time. Yea the company will recover and when it does I'm sure you will get yours. Then just like the late 90s the workers get to watch the company prosper while they have to work two jobs to get by. The company will piss the money away on overpaid analyists and when the real workers who produce the product complain the company will say We have a contract, YOU AGREED TO IT.
Nice Try.
To the real workers of United; Vote No, Its the only way to preserve your options. Dont be swayed by anonymous Analyists who will benifit from your scarifice. 6 years is way too long. If cuts are needed then let it be a year to year deal, dont get fooled again like you did in the 90s when airline employees were spectators to the prosperity that the rest of the country enjoyed. Vote No as many times as it takes. UAL will still be there, no one is big enough to replace all their services and the consumer does not favor such a massive consolidation of the industry. US Steel was bailed out, so was Chrysler, if need be so will United. You are better off in C-11 than working under terms set with the help of the ATSB. A No Vote is the only viable option.

 

[wts54]

Whatever you believe is your business.
I dont always believe our govt.

 

[UnitedChicago]

UAL777Flyer:

I didn't mean to get us off track...and again apologize to the board for the back-and-forth of me ant wts54.

In brief, there hasn't been any tangible evidence that has been put forth that would support the missile theory. We all know that witnesses often prove unreliable in airline crashes. I'm not discounting their accounts, but I do strongly believe that it can be explained. The FBI did pain staking analysis of the what was salvaged and could not find any evidence of a missle strike.

But this is a debate for another day and for a more appropriate section within this board.

Perhaps after we know the outcome of the loan...I'll start the topic.

 

[UAL777flyer]

Segue,

How can you call it a government backed unfair advantage when it is a congressionally backed airline bailout program open to all airlines? Why should UA be blamed because airlines like AA, DL, NW and CO opted not to make use of it? UA is merely making use of an option that is afforded to them. And the other carriers are afraid of UA getting the loan guarantee because the last thing they want is to compete against a leaner, stronger United in the marketplace. They've been riding the gravytrain off our misfortune for the last 2 1/2 years. They don't want us to get the loan and they don't want us to successfully restructure in bankruptcy. In either of those two scenarios, they lose. They'd rather we go through bankruptcy and be fragmented/liquidated. But that ain't gonna happen. What exactly is real structural change that you're talking about?

Diesel8,

At a premium? Do you honestly believe that UA's unencumbered assets can be leveraged at a premium in this environment? You've got to be kidding me. Of the roughly $3.5 billion in unencumbered assets, UA can't even get anywhere close to half that amount. It's simply not a worthwhile undertaking when you're only getting pennies on the dollar and adding more debt. I'm no fan of the ATSB either. But the option is there, so UA might as well use it.

UnitedChicago,

Not meaning to get off-topic, but with all due respect, I strongly disagree that the government proved TWA 800 was not brought down by a missile. They put out the explanation they wanted and disregarded affidavits from over 100 eyewitnesses who saw the SAME thing. In my opinion, the whole investigation and subsequent findings stunk like a rotting corpse in the desert sun. If you do enough digging for information that NEVER got reported in the mainstream press, it'll leave you laughing about the bogus conclusions of the FBI and NTSB.

 

[wts54]

UAL777flyer your conclusion is on the money.
Nobody believes the govt.tells the truth all
the time.They have their own agenda.Like killing
all those people at waco when they could have gotten
kouresh as he walked to the grocery store everyday.
There was something else afoot.Using m-60 battle tanks
to murder women,and children huddled in the corner.
America is full of kool-aid drinkers hooked up to
sunshine pumps.

 

[UnitedChicago]

America is full of kool-aid drinkers hooked up to
sunshine pumps.

wts54...I think you just described yourself.

 

[UnitedChicago]

One last thought and then I promise to zip it.

A lot of people feel that there is information that wasn't revealed to the press. Or that if you dig enough, you can find tangible dissenting information.

-We live in a country with numerous news outlets and organizations.

-If a missle strike actually occured, I would predict hundreds of government, military, and civilians would know and would be sitting on this secret. For example, the military can detect a rocket launch anywhere in the world. That's how we launched patriot missles to intercept the skud in Iraq. Don't you think they would have detected a launch? If so, a cover up would have had to taken shape within hours to stop that info from being released.

-The average american likes money. We want more of it.

So put it all together...hundreds of people sitting on a big secret, numerous news outlets willing to shell out millions for a hot story, and the fact that we like money. Someone would have spilled the beans for lots of green.

 

[wts54]

UAL777Flyer:
Where is the cuts from the white collar group you mentioned
awhile back something I think about a 12% manpower reduction.

 

[UnitedChicago]

See wts54...we can agree to disagree - no? I'll even tell you my first name: Dave.

 

[wts54]

No,senor I believe that fits you better.

 

[UAL777flyer]

UnitedChicago,

There has been much more tangible evidence of the missile theory than anything the government put forth as an explanation. There was a ton of shenanigans behind the scenes in terms of manipulation of evidence and tampering with witnesses, to the point of badgering them to change their stories. Many of the eyewitnesses were VERY credible, i.e. active duty military. As I stated, if you do a thorough search of available information, you'll be amazed at what you find and wonder why it was never reported by the mainstream press. I never bought the spark-igniting-fuel-pump theory from Day 1. While I'm no conspiracy theorist in general, if I find enough information on something to raise questions in my mind, I have no problem discounting the disinformation that is spoon-fed to us by our beloved potical leadership on a daily basis. We're all entitled to our opinions, of course, but I will go to my grave believing firmly that TWA 800 was brought down by a missile. If people want to call me crazy, go ahead. But my opinion was formed from extensive reading and research of available information, not from governmental disinformation and spin-doctoring in various media outlets.

 

[UAL777flyer]

wts54,

Ooops, sorry I didn't reply to your question in my previous remark. I hit submit a bit too quickly.

Right now there is an EXPEDITED effort to get all management/salaried 2002 performance reviews completed by Dec.18. That is what will be used to determine who is furloughed and who stays. We still do not know how it will be done. However, we've heard it will be more of a tactical undertaking and not an across the board percentage cut from each department. By that I mean that apparently, they are working hard to determine where the fat is and cut in those areas and not touch already under-staffed departments (like mine). I've heard that entire departments may get cut and functions integrated into other areas. I think it'll be handled differently than the post-9/11 cuts. And I think that's the right thing to do. A simple across-the-board percentage cut is useless, as it will further hurt departments that are already critically short on manpower. McKinzie supposely worked hard at identifying those deparments that could be cut or streamlined into a more efficient use of resources. We shall see what the outcome is. But the cuts probably won't take affect until the beginning of January. But if we were to file for Ch.11, that process could certainly be accelerated.