Prop 8 over turned in CA

[Ms Tree]

I know you do not care about equal rights so why you keep responding is beyond me. Your stance is quite clear.

I know, everyone has a black friend. Its OK.

I have never once mentioned anything about their gender. I spoken about them the same way I speak about males. I question their ethics and their politics. Show me one quote of mine where I commented on their gender. For your assessment of me to be true will make you the biggest racist on this board. Your post about Obama are hateful and vile. I do not believe you are racist though, you just hate his politics. There is a difference.

Can I have an example of 'gayness' being thrown in your face?

 

[SparrowHawk]

I know you do not care about equal rights so why you keep responding is beyond me. Your stance is quite clear.

I know, everyone has a black friend. Its OK.

I have never once mentioned anything about their gender. I spoken about them the same way I speak about males. I question their ethics and their politics. Show me one quote of mine where I commented on their gender. For your assessment of me to be true will make you the biggest racist on this board. Your post about Obama are hateful and vile. I do not believe you are racist though, you just hate his politics. There is a difference.

Can I have an example of 'gayness' being thrown in your face?

ONE? When? Where? Which time? I grew up just outside of New Hope, PA, which since I was a kid has had a vibrant gay community and it was not uncommon even in the mid '70's to see gay couples hand in hand. Necking, etc. As I'm typing one incident came up. New Hope always had/has great restaurants and it's a really nice place to spend a day and the go to dinner and maybe John & Peters. Saw a young George Thorogood there many times. Had a really nice date going and we decided to walk back to the car via the towpath. Well being somewhat oblivious as I often am I had no earthly idea what went on there after dark. Let's just say that it was Sodom and Gomorrah on the Delaware and we were:
A: The only straight Couple
B: The only fully clothed Couple
C: The only Couple not groping one another

The entire towpath looked like a gay porn shoot. Girlfriend was NOT a happy camper. Maybe I'm a prude but I really don't like to be walking in a public park dodging used condoms, averting my eyes while some guy is taking it in the seat from another guy.

 

[Ms Tree]

Twin peaks restaurant

Hetero sex in public is so common place no one even notices it any more. It is used to sell tooth paste to cars to booze to food. I cannot even count the number of times I have seen hetero couples going at each other on beaches and in park. If people are violating decency laws then they should be cited or what ever. To say that one group does it more than another is IMO ignorant and naive. Hetero sex is every where you look.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Twin peaks restaurant

Hetero sex in public is so common place no one even notices it any more. It is used to sell tooth paste to cars to booze to food. I cannot even count the number of times I have seen hetero couples going at each other on beaches and in park. If people are violating decency laws then they should be cited or what ever. To say that one group does it more than another is IMO ignorant and naive. Hetero sex is every where you look.

Prior to the AIDS epidemic the promiscuity of Gay men was well documented and became a bit of a stereotype. I can honestly say I've seen some straight couples go beyond what I would consider appropriate boundaries. What I can't say from personal observation is that I have ever seen anything in the Hetero community that remotely compared to what transpired that evening.

Image wise I tend to agree about our sex obsessed society. You asked a direct question, I answered it. I was appalled at what we saw and truth be told if they were straight couples I don't think my reaction would change.

 

[Ms Tree]

Did you sleep through the 60's and 70's. Free love ring a bell?

Attention has all ways been focused on things that are 'different' from the norm. Hetero sex is the norm so it goes by largely unnoticed. Gay sex is not the norm so if it peeks out in the open, it will garner attention. A man and woman walking hand in hand will not even raise an eye brow, same sex.... the end is near.

Have you seen it again since? Sounds like you have not other wise I think you would have mentioned it. Regardless, it's an issue of law enforcement not of equality. The issues are not related in my opinion. I have seen KKK protesting equal rights for minorities. I have seen the results of skin heads defacing temples. I still support their rights as out lined in the COTUS. I do not care what individuals do. Those are legal issues as far as I am concerned. I am not willing to base the rights of a group on the actions of of some/all of it's members. The rights are independent of the members.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Did you sleep through the 60's and 70's. Free love ring a bell?

Attention has all ways been focused on things that are 'different' from the norm. Hetero sex is the norm so it goes by largely unnoticed. Gay sex is not the norm so if it peeks out in the open, it will garner attention. A man and woman walking hand in hand will not even raise an eye brow, same sex.... the end is near.

Have you seen it again since? Sounds like you have not other wise I think you would have mentioned it. Regardless, it's an issue of law enforcement not of equality. The issues are not related in my opinion. I have seen KKK protesting equal rights for minorities. I have seen the results of skin heads defacing temples. I still support their rights as out lined in the COTUS. I do not care what individuals do. Those are legal issues as far as I am concerned. I am not willing to base the rights of a group on the actions of of some/all of it's members. The rights are independent of the members.

Yes i have seen it again. More times than i care to admit. I grew up around it living 6 miles from New Hope, PA an area that's tolerated Gays since before I was born. Only then they were called, Queers, Fruits and worse. I was freaking 9 years old when this gay couple had a lovers quarrel and it spilled out onto the street. One was in full drag trying to hit his partner over the head with a cast iron frying pan. I asked my Dad, "Daddy why is that man wearing a dress"? Do you really think a father should have to attempt to explain to a 9 year old in 1963 just exactly what the hell just happened?

See unlike you I've wrestled with the Gay rights issue and have been pretty much all over the map as to how I feel about it. That's because I am a free thinker and don't follow any orthodoxy not even Libertarian all of the time. I've come to a conclusion regarding the issue after prayerful consideration of all points of view and my spiritual up bringing. So here goes.

1. It's a matter for the states to decide individually as is the case in NY recently.
2. True to my Libertarian roots, the rights of the individual take precedence over the rights of government.
3. It is within the purview of the state to call it marriage or Civil union, Domestic partnership, whatever.
4. Like abortion it's a deeply personal and often spiritual decision and as such the government has no business interfering with that decision at the federal level.
5. Homosexuality is not normal. I don't have to respect anyone's sexuality if I choose not to and I too have a right to the same tolerance of my views as anyone with differing idea/opinions might have. If I can't call you a flaming queer or worse then you can't call me homophobic either. You want tolerance? Extend me the same courtesy and you'll get it in spades

This will likely be my last post on the topic of Gay Marriage. Frankly I don't want to hear about it, see it or be a part of it. I also don't like my one friend who is always bragging in great detail about his sex life and how talented his wife is at certain things. I don't want to hear about that either. Some things in life are personal.

 

[Ms Tree]

No I do not wrestle with tbe idea of equal rights. I think everyone should be equal. Very simple in my opinion. States should have no more control over equal rights for gays than they do over any other segment of society. Regardless it would be a violation of the COTUS.

At some point the SCOTUS will rule and it will be a done deal.

 

[Ms Tree]

I saw this on line to day. Not surprising and in my opinion very telling. The churches hatred of gays is over riding their 'mission' to help children find loving homes. Seems that they would rather let children suffer in foster care or orphanages than place children into a same sex loving family. They take federal funds they need to play by federal rules.

I do not understand their thinking on this and I guess I should be glad I don't. I'd hate to be in a position where that made sense.

Illinois, Catholic Agencies At Odds Over Gay Adoptions

But the law allowing civil unions has put the state and some faith-based organizations at odds. Catholic Charities agencies in five Illinois dioceses, which had received state funds to provide foster care and adoption services, only placed children with straight married couples or straight single people who lived alone.

As the civil union law went into effect, Catholic Charities in Rockford, Ill., ended its adoption service over concerns that it would have to place children with same-sex couples or face discrimination lawsuits. Catholic Charities in three other Illinois dioceses put licensing any new prospective parents on hold and sued the state.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I saw this on line to day. Not surprising and in my opinion very telling. The churches hatred of gays is over riding their 'mission' to help children find loving homes. Seems that they would rather let children suffer in foster care or orphanages than place children into a same sex loving family. They take federal funds they need to play by federal rules.

I do not understand their thinking on this and I guess I should be glad I don't. I'd hate to be in a position where that made sense.

Illinois, Catholic Agencies At Odds Over Gay Adoptions

With Catholics and Conservative Christian this has NOTHING to do with US law. What it is all about in their view is God's Law and the interpretation thereof. You as someone who doesn't come from that place where there is a deity I can well understand your questioning.

It's not a hatred so much as it is that we as a nation should adhere to the tenets of the Church. This is in direct conflict with certain portions of the COTUS. This is why I wrestle with this issue more than I should. As a Christian I know in my heart that Homosexuality is just plain wrong. The bible tells me this and I DO believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. However, while we as a nation were founded by a majority of men who feel as I do. They wisely chose to make the US a republic with no state sanctioned religion. So the debate rages on and oddly enough for me at least, both sides raise valid points in support of their points of view. To me there is no clear answer.

 

[Ms Tree]

Most of what I have read indicates that a majority of the founders were deists not theist. They also believed that women should not be equal to men and that blacks were only 3/5 of a person. I am not sure I take everything they said as undeniable truths.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Most of what I have read indicates that a majority of the founders were deists not theist. They also believed that women should not be equal to men and that blacks were only 3/5 of a person. I am not sure I take everything they said as undeniable truths.

The deists not theist argument has raged for quite some time and some of my research indicates a "Holocaust Denial" like revisionist history when it comes to this argument.

So for me the critical point is that we have no state sanctioned religion and that is generally a good thing. The 3/5ths a person and no vote for women to me are not examples of a lack of enlightenment as at the time the whole concept of Individual Liberty was so far "Out There" in terms of how society was at the time. So it is no surprise that eventually those issues would be addressed later.

 

[Ms Tree]

New York City offices open Sunday July 24 for gay marriages

New York City will open its clerk's offices on Sunday, July 24, to allow same-sex couples to wed on the first day the state's gay marriage bill goes into effect, officials said on Wednesday.

City clerk's offices in the five boroughs of New York normally are closed on weekends, but Mayor Michael Bloomberg said that for this special occasion they will be open.

"This is a historic moment for New York, a moment many couples have waited years and even decades to see -- and we are not going to make them wait one day longer than they have to," Bloomberg said in a statement.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Star Parker
A Few Rich Libertarians Help Undermine Freedom

The New York Magazine headline reads: You Can Thank a Few Rich Libertarians for Gay Marriage.

The story is that a million dollar contribution by several rich Republican hedge fund operators, “ inclined to see the issue as one of personal freedom, consistent with their libertarian views,” was key to legalization of same sex marriage in New York.

One of these men, Paul Singer, also happens to be chairman of the Manhattan Institute, the libertarian leaning think tank in New York City that describes its mission “to foster greater economic choice and personal responsibility.”

But these latest efforts of Singer and his colleagues undermine that mission and aspirations toward keeping this a free nation with limited government.

Why?

Their willingness to dismiss the meaning and relevance of a pillar of traditional values – marriage – makes clear that in no way do they see our free nation rooted in God-given truths. They must opt, then, for the only other alternative. Human design. They’ll decide what is relevant and not, what is true and false.

Hmmm, turned out those evil Republicans and nut job Libertarians paved the way for Adam & Steve's trip down the Hershey Highway towards Marital bliss. So if we apply Liberal/Progressive Logic then in the case of Gay Marriage in NY, it would have to the fault of George Bush! Wait how could that be??????? Don't you just LOVE when Hypocrisy and Truth have a head on collision in the middle of the Political arena.

All 9 Inches of the Article Here!!

 

[Ms Tree]

Lets see.

It's a Op-Ed piece with no supporting documentation to support her claims. With in the same article she calls them Libertarians, republicans and libertarian republicans. You have repeatedly stated that they are not the same and that Bush is none of the above. You are also assuming that your line of thought is logical which is a stretch to say the least.

The only way one could successfully argue that Bush had anything to do with gays gaining equal rights is to say that efforts to deprive them of equal rights blew up in his face and of his supporters. But even that is a stretch.

 

[xUT]

I saw this on line to day. Not surprising and in my opinion very telling. The churches hatred of gays is over riding their 'mission' to help children find loving homes. Seems that they would rather let children suffer in foster care or orphanages than place children into a same sex loving family. They take federal funds they need to play by federal rules.

I do not understand their thinking on this and I guess I should be glad I don't. I'd hate to be in a position where that made sense.

Illinois, Catholic Agencies At Odds Over Gay Adoptions

Your arrogance is unimpressive. IMHO, you have no moral compass, ethics and questionable values.
I do not see hate here except for you, because of your twisted sense of morality.
Christians do not 'hate' gays, yet you continue to post that dribble as that is what you 'believe' and want to broadcast.
The Catholic church made a decision not to support the homo-promo and refused federal funding.
Why don't some of you stalwarts in community activism fill the gap instead of condemnation?
You clowns know what is right, so step up to the plate or STFU!

Without 'faith' based organizations (that you so "HATE"), then you people pick up the slack.
Lets see how that works out... 😛

I reject your 'moral compass'...

B)