Question on abrogation.

[Hopeful]

Assuming this gets voted down. We start negotiations anew.
My question is, even though we are resetting the clock on negotiations, do we also reset the clock as far as the NMB is concerned?
Will the NMB use 2008 as the starting point or 2012?

 

[Flying low]

Another question. It's been said in one of these many threads that the company can't exit BK without contracts settled. And the company will have to move towards the union in negotiations. Exactly where does it say this?

 

[wrencher]

We need a family day at AA

 

[Hopeful]

Another question. It's been said in one of these many threads that the company can't exit BK without contracts settled. And the company will have to move towards the union in negotiations. Exactly where does it say this?

I hate to repeat this comment, but this is going to be a Nancy Pelosi moment when she told the Congress "You are just going to have to vote in the healtchare overhaul bill to see what's in it."

The difference with us being, whether a NO vote or a YES vote, we are going to have to wait to see what is actually going to occur.

We are going to be in for some unpleasant surpises after this plays out. Whether voting YES or whether voting NO.

I am also of the belief that if you vote NO, you should automatically be a YES vote to changing our union representation.
Remember, the same TWU Int'l will still OWN the contract that we begin negotiating anew should the term sheets be imposed.

 

[Real tired]

Here's another "IF" that we BOTH might face.

"If"...... we become coworkers, there will be a new Transition Agreement that will be voted on in the future that might combine the two contracts, and there will be a vote for union representation.

That's what we did when we combined the 800+ AWA Mechanics in our yet to be completed merger 7 years ago.

 

[700UW]

There was no vote for which union would represent the mechanics, the IBT never got enough cards to force a vote, same happened for the ramp with the TWU.

And maintenance is mergered under a single CBA.

And no where in the RLA or Section 1113 does it say negotiations commence after an abrogation, the company will have the CBA modified per the term sheet with a 2018 amendable date.

 

[CMH_GSE]

There was no vote for which union would represent the mechanics, the TWU never got enough cards to force a vote, same happened for the ramp.

And maintenance is mergered under a single CBA.

And no where in the RLA or Section 1113 does it say negotiations commence after an abrogation, the company will have the CBA modified per the term sheet with a 2018 amendable date.

This is absolutely correct and I don't for the life of me know why the "vote no" crowd keeps saying, "but we can negotiate better terms if we vote no".
Yeah, in 2018 after we took even worse terms than voting yes.

The Company has no motivation to negotiate with us whether we vote yes or vote no.
This comes down to one question, which package is better for you for the next 6 years, a yes vote = 17 stations open, early out money, many jobs saved, more options for those displaced, or a no vote 13 stations open, no early out, 5 yr recall instead of 10, and no reason to assume we would get anything better before 2018.

Voting yes is a bad deal compared to the T/A most of you voted down, voting no is worlds worse.

 

[john john]

And no where in the RLA or Section 1113 does it say negotiations commence after an abrogation, the company will have the CBA modified per the term sheet with a 2018 amendable date.

Didn’t USAirways management negotiate with IAM after the bankruptcy abrogation and then put it out to vote

 

[paul1]

Assuming this gets voted down. We start negotiations anew.
My question is, even though we are resetting the clock on negotiations, do we also reset the clock as far as the NMB is concerned?
Will the NMB use 2008 as the starting point or 2012?

its my understanding if the judge throws out are agreement. We will start negotiations anew with the the nmb according to are local.

The company needs agreements with its work force to exit bk. This isn't written any where, but what creditors are going to allow aa to exit bk without contracts in place.

 

[AANOTOK]

A contract is in place. The one the company shoves down your throat from the term sheet!

 

[eolesen]

Assuming this gets voted down. We start negotiations anew.
My question is, even though we are resetting the clock on negotiations, do we also reset the clock as far as the NMB is concerned?
Will the NMB use 2008 as the starting point or 2012?

I don't think it is really relevant. There's no countdown clock on how long the NMB stays engaged in mediation. As has already been pointed out, they kept Amtrak on ice for ten years.

nowhere in the RLA or Section 1113 does it say negotiations commence after an abrogation, the company will have the CBA modified per the term sheet with a 2018 amendable date.

I'm of the same opinion this it's never been clearly stated or defined what happens when the CBA isn't tossed out in its entirety. AMR may wind up being the precedent.

 

[700UW]

No, the FInal offer was given to us the night before the CBA was abrogated and we talked till 3am. That morning the CBA was abrogated and the judge held the ruling in abeyance and we voted on the final offer.

 

[Hopeful]

I don't think it is really relevant. There's no countdown clock on how long the NMB stays engaged in mediation. As has already been pointed out, they kept Amtrak on ice for ten years.



I'm of the same opinion this it's never been clearly stated or defined what happens when the CBA isn't tossed out in its entirety. AMR may wind up being the precedent.

Actually I think it IS relevant..Using Amtrak's 10 year negotiations as a benchmark....If we start in 2008...OUR 10 years would end in 2018 if the contract is voted in. If the clock is reset, then we start in 2012 and using the 10 year on-ice forumula takes us to 2022.

 

[eolesen]

Actually I think it IS relevant..Using Amtrak's 10 year negotiations as a benchmark....If we start in 2008...OUR 10 years would end in 2018 if the contract is voted in. If the clock is reset, then we start in 2012 and using the 10 year on-ice forumula takes us to 2022.

Regardless of whatever date they decide to consider as "the start", the problem is that unlike bankruptcy, there's no mandate for a timeline in which to declare an impasse. It's a judgement call on the part of the mediator, and on the part of the board.


For years I've said that you can't compare yourselves to WN without also taking their retirement, benefits, & workrules.

Lots of you guys have said you'd work under WN's rates and workrules. The big stumbling block has always been the pension, and to a lesser degree, benefits.

Regardless if the term sheets or the TA become the new reality, pension and benefits get taken out of the equation.

Maybe this is the time to use abrogation to your benefit, and put the WN contract on the table as a proposal...

 

[Tater Salad]

This is absolutely correct and I don't for the life of me know why the "vote no" crowd keeps saying, "but we can negotiate better terms if we vote no".
Yeah, in 2018 after we took even worse terms than voting yes.

The Company has no motivation to negotiate with us whether we vote yes or vote no.
This comes down to one question, which package is better for you for the next 6 years, a yes vote = 17 stations open, early out money, many jobs saved, more options for those displaced, or a no vote 13 stations open, no early out, 5 yr recall instead of 10, and no reason to assume we would get anything better before 2018.

Voting yes is a bad deal compared to the T/A most of you voted down, voting no is worlds worse.

The motivation for the company to negotiate will come from the creditors, this may be the first time in decades the playing field will become somewhat levelled. Grow some nads people, and vote NO!