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The point is we took pay cuts to make the oil men richer. We should have let the industry and the economy collapse and put the blame on the oil companies instead of bankrupting ourselves to keep the airlines flying.Oneflyer said:
Bob Owens said:
What a hilarious post. 😀
No, Mr Owens, the few (airline industry employees) took the hit so that the rest of the economy (the many) could continue to prosper. The needs of the many always outweigh those of the few. Too bad for you.
Ken MacTiernan
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FWAAA said:
fwaa, I do not see any humor in Bob's post. In fact the truth is very painful. Airlines have cried to the high heavens that labor and fuel were too expensive. So, we, (the few), have given up much for little in return. If cab and limosine (sp) companies can raise their fares because of the price of fuel why can't the airlines? If maintenance is so expensive and airlines outsource this work to less paid, less skilled AMTs why can't they turn a profit?
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Ken MacTiernan said:
Limo's might be able to raise rates at will, but aren't meter rates set by the cities they operate in?
Still, for the sake of your example....
1) How many cab or limo drivers get health insurance, a pension?
2) How many cab or limo drivers have location protection or get a relocation payment worth about two months salary when they get bumped to another city?
3) How many cab/limo companies do their PM's and oil changes in-house, versus going to the Kwik Lube & Tune down the street?
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What is hilarious is that we were told that without concessions AA would go Bankrupt. Deadlines were set, then broken to obtain concessions, then the hidden retirement SERP's were disclosed.
Fuel prices have consumed MORE than the concessions for a lengthy period of time now.
AA has not gone Bankrupt, in fact has now turned a profit.
If not for fuel prices, the industry would have turned from Bankruptcies, to RECORD profits in less that 36 months.
Not really funny at my dinner table.
DISPICABLE is more the term.
Fuel prices have consumed MORE than the concessions for a lengthy period of time now.
AA has not gone Bankrupt, in fact has now turned a profit.
If not for fuel prices, the industry would have turned from Bankruptcies, to RECORD profits in less that 36 months.
Not really funny at my dinner table.
DISPICABLE is more the term.
Ken MacTiernan said:
The hilarious part of Owens' post was the image of the big bad "oil men" boogeyman that Owens paints.
Assuming that you are right about cabs and limos having raised their rates, the reason that they can do it is that the numbers of cabs and limos is usually restricted by the city in which they operate. NYC cab medallions go for over $100k. Lack of competition and lack of overcapacity. Contrast that to the airline industry.
Airlines price tickets to fill the seats, and the capacity added by the darling LCCs is much higher than the growth of the economy. That leads the less-favored legacies to cut prices in a desperate attempt to bring in cash. Airlines have tried to raise fares (again today, making 8 or 9 times this year) but yields don't show that the fare increases really stick.
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Oneflyer said:
Free Market Economy?
You mean the one where Government Regulations cost a fortune, and Federal Government Bailouts and Bankruptcy laws keep the weak competition in play? The one where anti-trust investigations claim predatory pricing everytime the weak get kicked?
I'm game OneFlyer, give me a lesson in your version of "free market economy" as it relates to the current airline industry?
The Airline Indsutry in the most regulated, de-regulated industry on the planet. I do not see the free market in the airline industry but I am willing to learn your version for the sake of debate?
Former ModerAAtor,Aug 12 2005, 12:06 AM]
Limo's might be able to raise rates at will, but aren't meter rates set by the cities they operate in?
Now you're talkin!! Reregulation is the way to go!!! If the airlines are going to be considered Mass Transit then regulate like even the Taxi's are. Let the government set the rates because the airlines cant seem to do it on their own without going BK.
Still, for the sake of your example....
1) How many cab or limo drivers get health insurance, a pension?
Probably more than airline workers. My father drove a Limo and has been living on his pension since 1988.
2) How many cab or limo drivers have location protection or get a relocation payment worth about two months salary when they get bumped to another city?
Do cab or Limo drivers get bumped to other cities?
3) How many cab/limo companies do their PM's and oil changes in-house, versus going to the Kwik Lube & Tune down the street?
Actually quite a few. Havent you ever seen "Taxi"? Garages (somewhat) like that really do exist.
Limo's might be able to raise rates at will, but aren't meter rates set by the cities they operate in?
Now you're talkin!! Reregulation is the way to go!!! If the airlines are going to be considered Mass Transit then regulate like even the Taxi's are. Let the government set the rates because the airlines cant seem to do it on their own without going BK.
Still, for the sake of your example....
1) How many cab or limo drivers get health insurance, a pension?
Probably more than airline workers. My father drove a Limo and has been living on his pension since 1988.
2) How many cab or limo drivers have location protection or get a relocation payment worth about two months salary when they get bumped to another city?
Do cab or Limo drivers get bumped to other cities?
3) How many cab/limo companies do their PM's and oil changes in-house, versus going to the Kwik Lube & Tune down the street?
Actually quite a few. Havent you ever seen "Taxi"? Garages (somewhat) like that really do exist.
FWAAA said:
Lack of competition? Hardly. Overcapacity? Well the average load factor of a cab is at best 25%. The big difference is that the people who own and control the cabs and limos make their money off those cabs and limos. They dont try to get every fare by undercutting everyone else (the rates are the max, they could charge less if they wanted to), they get what they need at a price where they can make money.
The airlines are different. Most airline stock is owned by Institutions that make money from many sources, like GE. GE is making money leasing airplanes to USAIR which is losing money. Well as long as they make more money off their leases to USAIR than they lose at USAIR they are ahead. However if USAIR closes then they have to scramble to find someone to lease all their airplanes, that would lower the market for leases. So unlike the cab or limo company other interests have a stake at keeping a money loser going, in fact it could be advantageous to lose money, as we have seen.
