Ramifications of Judge Mitchell''s ruling

This is from a political website-

"Any proviso in that ruling that would reinstate the pension at the current levels should the economy improve (fat chance til Shrub's out of office) and business travelers return to the air enmasse?"

No, that can not happen. The distress ternimation of the pilot's pension plan is part of US Airways Group, Inc.'s chapter 11 Plan which is set for confirmation on March 18. Eleven days after entry of the Confirmation Order all of the debtor's obligations to the pilots (except as providecd for in the Plan) are discharged. The way they push things in the Region 4 U.S. Trustee's Office, US Airways Group, Inc. will get a Final Decree closing out the case whithin a year -- which is very much faster than in many other parts of the country.

The Pilots can appeal to the U.S. District court, but Judge Mitchell's findings of fact underlying his ruling can only be reversed for "clear error"; an impossibly high standard in these circumstances. Even if the Pilots were to appeal, they'd have to post a bond to stop US Airways Group from cutting off the pensions after the Plan's effective date, which is 11 days after confirmation. The amount of the bond would be staggering, and I would guess that ALPA would not going to have that kind of money available.

Despite what may have seemed like a close thing, from all I could tell, it wasn't. I try quite a few cases before Judge Mitchell and I know that reads the pleadings, exhibits, and memoranda very carefully, and typically does quite a bit of research on his own before any hearing like this. The fact that he had scheduled the Plan for confirmation only three weeks after this hearing tells me that he was reasonably convinced the debtor was going to prove his case on the distress termination anyway. In fact, the Assistant U.S. Attorney who represented the PBGC told me on Wednesday that he felt termination was in the cards after the first day.

One thing I do find strange is that as of Friday morning the Court hadn't even finished with the debtor's witnesses. The courthouse security and the court reporter had been told to be there on Sunday if necessary to finish the hearing, but ALPA's case and the five pilots who had signed-up to address the Court pro se were done in a day and half. It tells me that ALPA didn't have much in the way of testimony or evidence, but was trying to prove their case through cross-examination of the debtor's witnesses. Since under the Bankruptcy Rules ALPA (and any other objecting party) had the burden of proof, this was not the ideal tactic.
 
Chip, you say nothing about the retired pilots. What happens to them (and to me)? My ex has been retired since 1995. The last thing either he or I figured was that we'd find ourselves in this position. Can you enlighten me and the rest of us if ALPA is going to negotiate for the retired pilots too? I am sure the Soaring Eagles aren't goint to take this laying down unless there is absolutely nothing they can do. But don't you think that the active pilots should look after the older pilots, some of whom are really old, ill, have ill spouses etc.
Retirement sucks but I never knew how much until now.
 
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On 3/2/2003 9:56:07 PM Hula Girl wrote:

I just don't understand you Pinney Bob. My boyfriend is one of those pilots who as you say, stands there like a freakin' cigar store indian. HE is polite and says hello to everyone. So why don't you leave as you have nothing to offer here but nastiness. Don't you have a life? I come to this board as this is the company I work for and the people that I work with post important information here. I just keep reading the rantings of a lonely and bitter man who needs to feel like he has something important to contribute. It is sad really.
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YAY GODDESS!!! He loves to pontificate, so he won't go. He probably pulls the wings off of baby flies too.
 
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On 3/2/2003 10:05:47 PM friendlypup wrote:

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On 3/2/2003 9:56:07 PM Hula Girl wrote:

I just don't understand you Pinney Bob. My boyfriend is one of those pilots who as you say, stands there like a freakin' cigar store indian. HE is polite and says hello to everyone. So why don't you leave as you have nothing to offer here but nastiness. Don't you have a life? I come to this board as this is the company I work for and the people that I work with post important information here. I just keep reading the rantings of a lonely and bitter man who needs to feel like he has something important to contribute. It is sad really.
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YAY GODDESS!!! He loves to pontificate, so he won't go. He probably pulls the wings off of baby flies too.
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Hula and sick puppy why don't you cut him some slack. If you go back and review his posts you'll find he is not as nasty as you claim him to be. Hula, I'm glad your boyfriend is a pilot. You keep telling us that so I'm impressed, but perhaps that relationship is causing you to see things the way you want to see them rather than how they really are. Sick puppy-oh never mind. Savy
 
Bob-I do believe that we come from the same view of having to earn respect.

I do call you out every single time you've attacked the pilots on somewhat shakey ground. The accusation that they contain an arrogant swagger, the fact that one may have (unwittingly) ignored your hello as you'd boarded. It obviously left a lasting impression..for which I'm most apologetic. I'm not a pilot. If you will reference our prior exchanges, I have mentioned that I am the child of a retired pilot. I had worked for US as a flight attendant many moons ago. My mother was a non-commercial pilot. My sister is a US flight attendant and my brother is an attorney. I will refuse comment on my present occupation, but let me say that my lifestyle has improved. This does not mean that I don't hold an incredible interest in this current US situation. My siblings and I will continue to hold quite a huge stake in this entire situation. My sister is married to another US union employee -- not a pilot, not a f/a, etc. This thing goes rather deeply into our collective lives. I'm not sure you fully understand how hard it is to watch you broadbrush this pilot matter -- they're not evil, they've worked and earned just like everyone else. I admit there were several pilots on here that were in constant attack mode over some unions and their concessionary contracts, expressing ad nauseum what others should be doing -- I did not participate.

I, once again, apologize for the pilot that inadvertantly ignored you as you boarded the aircraft. I will also apologize if I have judged you harshly for your across-the-board pilot bashing. I believe my stake is rather clear to you now, Bob....can we call it a draw?
 
I would venture to say it is PHL. Of all the airports, PHL is the only one that I can say I truly dislike going to. I can't remember ever flying in there and not having some kind of "goat rope" happen before we left!!!!

LGA, BOS, and DCA at rush hour are a day at the beach compared to PHL. In PHL it seems that even the smallest problem screws up their system.





Pilot, as seen by others:

1. Passenger- Overpaid button pusher
2. The Company- Drain on the bottom line
3. Other labor groups- Arrogant premadonna, and overpaid button pusher.
4. The press- Good whipping posts.
5. His/her neighbors- Lazy bum that never works.

But let an engine blow up and catch fire and all the sudden a pilot is the greatest thing since sliced bread!!!!

9.gif']
 
Kate:

In my opinion, your anger and fear at a possible shutdown and liquidation of the company runs through your post, which is somewhat understandable.

Kate said: "You are the type of employee this company does not need -- weeks ago you were leaving your position for a sweeter deal -- what happened????"

Chip answers: Kate, due to two contacts I have other opportunities, but the decision of whether or not to leave is not black or white. However, if you remember I said I would make my decision based on a number of factors after the pension issue is resolved.

Kate said: "When a captain comes to the gate and can't tell an A319 from an A320, there is a problem. I've seen you do it."

Chip answers: Evidently the FAA believes I can identify an aircraft, since I have a "type rating".

Kate said: "My pension was frozen years ago and my pay, vacation and sick time were all severly cut - but I continued to work for the good of the company rather than dwell on what I was losing. You are still in a better position than I, and have many more $ to invest. Give it up - if you haven't learned how to invest well and live on what you make, than you don't deserve the unbelievable and undeserving pension some lunatics agreed to years ago."

Chip answers: It was unfortunate that the non-contract employees had their pension frozen and I wish you did not lose benefits. Furthermore, if ALPA had the option of a frozen versus terminated pension there would not have been four days of testimony. However, the fact is that the pilots could be the only employees with a terminated retirement plan.

Kate, I empathize with your fear, but with all due respect I believe it serves no useful purpose to lash out at others on the message board.

Chip

For more information on US Airways and the industry visit www.chipsplace.com then click onto Rumor Control.
 
Piney,

RE the cigar store thing. The price of freedom may be risk, but sometimes in the day a pilot just doesn't feel like risking it anymore by talking. Yes, it is good PR and you should have been greeted, but it only takes one passenger to make an accusation, and it's drug test and breathalyzer city, a company suit standing there watching your every move, reams of paperwork, the entire crew interviewed, a replacement pilot called out or the flight cancelled, missed connections, and a trip to the chief pilots office and guilty until proven innocent. That's not an excuse, just a look at the day to day realities that come with the territory. Also, some of these older pilots didn't wear their earplugs back in the Convair 580 days, and they've lost a good bit of their hearing in the frequencies of speech. Just a thought. We appreciate your continued patronage.
 
PineyBob, when I am working I do not always have access to the internet, thus sometimes it takes time to respond. In regard to your questions, senior management reads this board to gauge employee sentiment. As an active poster, ALPA member, and a person close to the MEC/NC, I'm not going to answer your questions because they could be perceived to effect the situation.

Friendlypup, it is my understanding ALPA could not represent retired employees during the proceeding and that's why the retiree's obtained their own counsel. I forgot the witness who testified and discussed revised retiree benefits, but it is my understanding there is s three-year look back and then the retiree gets 90 percent of that number.

The retiree PBGC payment should be 70 to 80 percent of their current benefit.

Chip

For more information on US Airways and the industry visit www.chipsplace.com then click onto Rumor Control.
 
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On 3/3/2003 12:01:54 AM chipmunn wrote:
Friendlypup, it is my understanding ALPA could not represent retired employees during the proceeding and that's why the retiree's obtained their own counsel. I forgot the witness who testified and discussed revised retiree benefits, but it is my understanding there is s three-year look back and then the retiree gets 90 percent of that number.

The retiree PBGC payment should be 70 to 80 percent of their current benefit.

Chip

For more information on US Airways and the industry visit www.chipsplace.com then click onto Rumor Control.

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Thankyou so much! That is the best news I've heard on this and I do hope you are right. I was 17 when I married my ex and at the time he had just gotten out of the military service as a ground pounder. It took him the GI bill and 3 part time jobs plus his full time one to eventually pay for and get all of his ratings. I still have his E6B and his plotter. He was turned down by EAL and PanAM but for a very long time, we've though that to be providence. However, once Ichan reared his ugly head, things changed and we both looked over our shoulders constantly. He was happy when he turned 60 and so was I. Whew! 37 years and then free from the threat of despots. (not Ed Colody or even Seth could be called that though)
Although unfortunately,we went our separate ways after he retired, we always thought we didn't do too bad for two highschool graduates.
Then the Love Letter arrived and our blood froze. Thankyou for letting mine flow again! I will relay what you wrote to him and my family.
I've always appreciated what I have and how lucky we have been, but he worked hard and as a company man and he does not owe U a damned thing now.
Thankyou again,
Pup
 
Bob,

Another thread off topic. I see others are having problems with your " broad brush " as well. I can understand your frustration. I have coveted the same kind of feelings towards gate agents for many years. But I have never posted any sweeping condemnation on the group. After all, I don't know their job or their pressures and I do not read minds. Plus I have only been involved with a small fraction of this group. How many of the mainline pilots have you conversed with?

If you wanna feel snubbed, then try being a employee around here. We treat each other far worse than the traveling public. Same at most airlines I believe.

On Feb 24 I issued below challenge. Have you had time to accept or did ya miss the post?




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On 2/24/2003 11:00:47 AM PineyBob wrote:

Just a clarification,
Labeling a person or group as arrogant or selfish or whatever usually comes from some basis in fact. These are not always a bad thing.

Think about it, would you want an orthopedic surgeon who wasn't the cockiest, arrogant SOB on 2 legs cutting you open? I know I wouldn't.

Where the trouble starts is when we start labeling with a "Broad Brush". Racial & Cultural stereotypes are the bain of our existance and people who exploit those differences are everywhere. Somehow we must rise above that type of behavior.

We've all heard that blacks are good dancers, Jews are tight with a buck, and pilots are arrogant! Are there blacks that suck as dancers, Jews who spend into BK and pilots who are humble and kind?? Of course there are and that's what we need to remember.

Are all Democrats philandering liars? NO! Just one was and he happened to be President.

My point is that a great many of, NOT ALL of the pilots posting here come across as arrogant and selfish to me. So if I was painting with that "Broad Brush" I apologize! It's just that you can paint so much faster, the problem is you paint over parts of the truth when you do.
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Bob,

Like you, I can only guess how well the few pilot posters on this board represent the group. But i can tell you that after working here for a long time you are painting this pilot group in the wrong light. To the contrary of your experience at being snubbed by pilots, I have found this group in particular to be generally speaking " quite humble ". I realize the traveling public has little one on one with this group and therefore may misinterpret their humility by viewing their behavior in the terminals.

I have a challenge for you...next time you see a crew with time to spare ask to visit the cockpit. I am confident you will change your view.

Btw, opology accepted. I opologize as well.





Posted: 2/24/2003 11:28:38 AM / IP: Recorded / Report this post
 
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On 3/3/2003 7:17:29 AM fatherabraham wrote:

Bob,

Another thread off topic. I see others are having problems with your " broad brush " as well. I can understand your frustration. I have coveted the same kind of feelings towards gate agents for many years. But I have never posted any sweeping condemnation on the group. After all, I don't know their job or their pressures and I do not read minds. Plus I have only been involved with a small fraction of this group. How many of the mainline pilots have you conversed with?

If you wanna feel snubbed, then try being a employee around here. We treat each other far worse than the traveling public. Same at most airlines I believe.

On Feb 24 I issued below challenge. Have you had time to accept or did ya miss the post?




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On 2/24/2003 11:00:47 AM PineyBob wrote:

Just a clarification,
Labeling a person or group as arrogant or selfish or whatever usually comes from some basis in fact. These are not always a bad thing.

Think about it, would you want an orthopedic surgeon who wasn't the cockiest, arrogant SOB on 2 legs cutting you open? I know I wouldn't.

Where the trouble starts is when we start labeling with a "Broad Brush". Racial & Cultural stereotypes are the bain of our existance and people who exploit those differences are everywhere. Somehow we must rise above that type of behavior.

We've all heard that blacks are good dancers, Jews are tight with a buck, and pilots are arrogant! Are there blacks that suck as dancers, Jews who spend into BK and pilots who are humble and kind?? Of course there are and that's what we need to remember.

Are all Democrats philandering liars? NO! Just one was and he happened to be President.

My point is that a great many of, NOT ALL of the pilots posting here come across as arrogant and selfish to me. So if I was painting with that "Broad Brush" I apologize! It's just that you can paint so much faster, the problem is you paint over parts of the truth when you do.
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Bob,

Like you, I can only guess how well the few pilot posters on this board represent the group. But i can tell you that after working here for a long time you are painting this pilot group in the wrong light. To the contrary of your experience at being snubbed by pilots, I have found this group in particular to be generally speaking " quite humble ". I realize the traveling public has little one on one with this group and therefore may misinterpret their humility by viewing their behavior in the terminals.

I have a challenge for you...next time you see a crew with time to spare ask to visit the cockpit. I am confident you will change your view.

Btw, opology accepted. I opologize as well.
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Due to constantly changing rules, and policies, I would not suggest requesting a view of the flight deck any more. (not even on the ground.) Sorry!!




Posted: 2/24/2003 11:28:38 AM / IP: Recorded / Report this post


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On 3/2/2003 7:16:53 PM Atlantic wrote:

To All,
Don't go out a buy a new car yet. The pilots are not going to roll over on this one. Not after what we've given.
Sorry
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Atlantic you must have read my mind. Just last night I was telling the wife that the Vette was in getting a little old and maybe its time to trade it in on a new one. Doesnt look like thats going to happen now... sigh.

Tug
 
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On 3/3/2003 12:12:17 AM chipmunn wrote:

However, the fact is that the pilots could be the only employees with a terminated retirement plan.

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I have to say, though I don't want to give anymore than I already have, I don't think its fair that the pilots are the only ones who have there plan terminated. If the company is short of money, they should terminate all the retirement plans, create a new plan for everyone. Its wrong to single out one labor group.
 
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On 3/3/2003 9:12:34 AM tug_slug wrote:

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On 3/2/2003 7:16:53 PM Atlantic wrote:

To All,
Don't go out a buy a new car yet. The pilots are not going to roll over on this one. Not after what we've given.
Sorry
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Atlantic you must have read my mind. Just last night I was telling the wife that the Vette was in getting a little old and maybe its time to trade it in on a new one. Doesnt look like thats going to happen now... sigh.

Tug
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My car is seven years old and I fully intend to keep it at least three more years. I maintain it; keep it detailed and washed and waxed in between. It looks like new and is no trouble. I am not a car snob but I don't like to drive an unkempt car. When I have to buy another car, it will be a late model with a new car warranty. Cars are all so ugly and all look alike anyway, but mine's a snazzy car. Tug, you should know that it is cool to own an old vette. My dad has the first model ever built and I wish I had that one now!