Single Operator Certificate

[Red Tail Bear]

There has been alot of speculation regarding the IAM contract and the changes that could take place when the FAA approves the SOC. Can anyone shed some light on this subject regarding combining unionized employees with non union employees before representation issues have been resolved. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hopefully not starting another "union vs non-union" thread but in theory it wouldn't be a problem combining the two IAM groups after the SOC is issued. Practices, policies, and procedures controlling how the work is done should be uniform across the two groups or the FAA wouldn't grant the SOC

The company would have to continue observing the unionized side's contract, however. That part wouldn't change. It would also be easier operations-wise to keep the two groups separate until representation and contract issues are settled. Mainly because of any differences in non-pay issues between the two groups (vacation, bidding, work rules, etc) it would be somewhat unwieldly to have a few PMNW mechanics in ATL or PMDL mechanics in MSP.

Of course,k all that assumes that there is no transition agreement covering at least the unionized grout that gives the requirements that must be met before the two groups can be combined. If there is a transition agreement it would govern.
Jim

 

[DalMD88]

Hopefully not starting another "union vs non-union" thread but in theory it wouldn't be a problem combining the two IAM groups after the SOC is issued. Practices, policies, and procedures controlling how the work is done should be uniform across the two groups or the FAA wouldn't grant the SOC

The company would have to continue observing the unionized side's contract, however. That part wouldn't change. It would also be easier operations-wise to keep the two groups separate until representation and contract issues are settled. Mainly because of any differences in non-pay issues between the two groups (vacation, bidding, work rules, etc) it would be somewhat unwieldly to have a few PMNW mechanics in ATL or PMDL mechanics in MSP.

Of course,k all that assumes that there is no transition agreement covering at least the unionized grout that gives the requirements that must be met before the two groups can be combined. If there is a transition agreement it would govern.
Jim

For the mechanics it is already settled. AMFA was the NW union and DL has never had a union. AMFA was decertifed last summer. The two groups are still agreeing on the senority intergration, but it's pretty much a done deal. Pay and bennies are already done. For us SOC will bring changes on qualifications after a few months. Right now it is tough to get MTC release/engine run/taxi/or autopilot qualed for the Red tail fleet. Eventually it will all go to the Delta system.

IAM is the union for NW ramp and stores I think.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Thanks for the info. I made some assumptions that were obviously false (like IAM = mechanics).

For the original poster, I think the general comments I made are stll valid despite the example I used being wrong.

Jim

 

[Kev3188]

IAM is the union for NW ramp and stores I think.

Correct. And the CSA's (above wing in the DL parlance), res., clerical, plant protection, and sim techs.

As for what will happen with the SOC? Good question. I imagine that we will see this in court before any of the other issues surrounding this merger. Our CBA continues to be in effect up to/until a representational election, but the A/C covered under our scope clause will now be on DL's certificate. I honestly have NO idea how they would divvy it up. I mean, an A330 is one thing, but what happens when a 757 shows up at the gate? Who's is it? How will you tell?

On top of that, what happens when the A320's move out west and PMDL A/C start flying in and out of MSP & DTW?

Gil West put out a memo to the effect of "we'll still have the same number of A/C to work so no worries," but I do know that some managers-specifically on the east coast- are using this to manipulate the mindset of their respective workforces.

Buckle up, amigos...

 

[BoeingBoy]

Our CBA continues to be in effect up to/until a representational election

Thanks, Kev, for including that "up to/until a representational election" qualifier since I forgot to include it.

Jim

 

[FlyDeMetrius]

US Airways has a Single Operating Certification however Pilots and F/A are seperated by fences until we get a single contract for pilots and flight attendants. however all operational policies and procedures are the same. Same Commands, same flight operating procedures. We have the same manuals and equipment is standardize on the fleet. When the FAA grants a SOC they are satisifed that crews, computers systems, and all operational procedures are the same. Now work rules are different ie pay, work rules, vacation that is the reason we refer to each as east and west even thought the planes are separated west metal / east metal everything is done the same. SOC is more geared towards how it is operated versus who is operating it.

 

[DalMD88]

I agree, SOC has more to do with how we do things. For MTC that means the NW operation manual, GEMM, is being absorbed into the DL TOPP manual. Each week we see updates that this or that info is now in TOPP. An example of this is the Required Inspection Item lists for each fleet type. They are getting 'harmonized' with the DL lists. By the end of Dec all will be in the TOPP manual and GEMM will disappear altogether. Even after SOC there will still be Red and Blue fleets. Parts control has a lot to do with that. The inventory systems will not be merged for a while.

 

[Red Tail Bear]

I'd like to thank all who have responded up to this point and welcome all input. However I am particularly interested in the ramp/below wing classifications. The combining of these two groups before representation is resolved could potentially be problematic if the IAM contract /work rules are not observed. A letter that was released by the company regarding the issuance of the SOC has fueled some of the speculation and up to this point the relationship between the two groups has not been very cordial. If and when DL receives the SOC are they then free to implement DL policy or are the required to abide by the IAM contact work rules? Or both? There is no doubt a lot of apprehension on both sides about how this issue will play out. Again, Thank you in advance for any input on this subject.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The SOC has nothing to do with integrating the two parts of an employee group together or contracts. It just means that the FAA is satisfied that everyone is doing everything the same way.

Until representation is decided, the PMNW employees working under a CBA will continue under that CBA unless there is a negotiated agreement saying otherwise. DL can't just say "Everyone's DL now so you contract with NW is meaningless." Well, let me rephrase that...DL could try but wouldn't be successful.

As I said earlier, DL could integrate the employee group while still abiding by the PMNW contracts for the PMNW employees. It would add complexity due to the factors you touched on, but it could be done. Whether DL will do that is a question I certainly can't answer. As for your specific question - "If and when DL receives the SOC are they then free to implement DL policy or are the required to abide by the IAM contact work rules? Or both?" - it depends on what you mean by DL policy. After the SOC is issued, policies involving FAR compliance will be the same for both groups - that's required to get the SOC. Contract provisions - work rules, vacation, pay, etc - are completely different and have to be complied with. So I guess the answer is "Both".

Jim

 

[Kev3188]

The SOC has nothing to do with integrating the two parts of an employee group together or contracts. It just means that the FAA is satisfied that everyone is doing everything the same way.

Until representation is decided, the PMNW employees working under a CBA will continue under that CBA unless there is a negotiated agreement saying otherwise. DL can't just say "Everyone's DL now so you contract with NW is meaningless." Well, let me rephrase that...DL could try but wouldn't be successful.

As I said earlier, DL could integrate the employee group while still abiding by the PMNW contracts for the PMNW employees. It would add complexity due to the factors you touched on, but it could be done. Whether DL will do that is a question I certainly can't answer. As for your specific question - "If and when DL receives the SOC are they then free to implement DL policy or are the required to abide by the IAM contact work rules? Or both?" - it depends on what you mean by DL policy. After the SOC is issued, policies involving FAR compliance will be the same for both groups - that's required to get the SOC. Contract provisions - work rules, vacation, pay, etc - are completely different and have to be complied with. So I guess the answer is "Both".

Jim

The question isn't the benefits, pay, etc. You're correct that there's no question that those will be separate until the vote is conducted. Day to day procedural stuff is slowing being mixed in for the ramp in the same sort of manner as DALMD88 described for tech ops.

The question on everyone's mind is how obtaining an SOC will affect our scope clause. The 64K questions is; with the entire article tied to all M/L NW and CP aircraft on NW's operating certificate, what happens when said certificate no longer exists?

 

[Delta Technician]

The question isn't the benefits, pay, etc. You're correct that there's no question that those will be separate until the vote is conducted. Day to day procedural stuff is slowing being mixed in for the ramp in the same sort of manner as DALMD88 described for tech ops.

The question on everyone's mind is how obtaining an SOC will affect our scope clause. The 64K questions is; with the entire article tied to all M/L NW and CP aircraft on NW's operating certificate, what happens when said certificate no longer exists?

I would like to answer that from a non-union point of view which you have no respect for. First of all you start thinking about your customers and what you can do for them and not what you can get out of the company. Second you think about how you can work as a team and not what you can get for you. Third you go home at the end of the day in hopes you earned not what your contract said you are gonna get but what you actually did earn by making your customers happy. Forthly, Your customers could care less about your "scope", you should keep that in mind. If you follow this train of thought you will not only be happy with the job you do but will be well compensated for making your customers happy. If our customers arent happy, we won't make money. Stop thinking about only yourselves and what you want!

 

[DalMD88]

I really hope that SOC will not effect any CBA. I like to think that DL is above using loopholes in a contract to stick it to the union employees. I know if I ran things it would not happen that way. I would be trying to get the two groups united as quickly as possible. From a management standpoint I would rather it be non union, but if it went union, so be it and move on.

It just doesn't make sence to use loopholes like that when you are trying to convince someone to not support a union. This is really true when you are dealing with a workforce that really doesn't trust management. Judging by the way this forum has changed, most Red Tail employees fall into that catagory. I chalk that up to the culture of NW. With time I hope that will moderate down some. That will only happen if DL management treats you fairly.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The question on everyone's mind is how obtaining an SOC will affect our scope clause. The 64K questions is; with the entire article tied to all M/L NW and CP aircraft on NW's operating certificate, what happens when said certificate no longer exists?

Thanks for the clarification, Kev. A similiar issue came up with Dignity in another thread and all I can say is what I said to him/her - the company can live up to the intent of the contracts or only acknowledge the letter of the contracts. As DalMD88 said, the company would be better off living up to the intent of the contracts. Will they? I certainly don't know.

Other than that, all I can really do is ask a few questions. Did any of the unions (other than pilots who appear to be ready for integration) negotiate any sort of transition agreement to cover the period of transitioning from 2 completely separate and independent carriers to one completely integrated carrier? Is there any merger language in the union contracts that would affect what DL can do? Did DL give any assurance that the transition period would be handled in one way or another? If the answer to all three is no then it would appear to be up to management.

I also don't have enough detailed knowledge about the issuance of a SOC either. In this case is the NW certificate returned/nullified/void/invalid when the SOC is issued. Certificates have been sold as part of an airline's liquidation. I believe certificates have been held by the acquiring company to be used later if needed, but can't say that is absolutely accurate. If the NW certificate continues to exist after the SOC is issued (even if not used) that might provide the means of forcing DL to honor the contracts' scope language if force becomes necessary.

Lots of conjecture on my part but no answers.

Jim

 

[Kev3188]

Other than that, all I can really do is ask a few questions. Did any of the unions (other than pilots who appear to be ready for integration) negotiate any sort of transition agreement to cover the period of transitioning from 2 completely separate and independent carriers to one completely integrated carrier?

Good question. The dispatchers elected to go with PAFCA (which covered DL prior to this), but I have know idea if there was a transition agreement, or if they simply "fell under" the PAFCA CBA.

All other unions so far (AMFA, ATSA, NAMA) have gone non union and fall under the applicable DL pay rates/benefits..

Is there any merger language in the union contracts that would affect what DL can do?

For us in the IAM, the LPP language was gutted in BK, but that which remains states that the successor company and union will meet to ensure proper seniority integration under secs. 2, 3, and 13 of Allegheny Mohawk. It also states that nothing will prevent the carrier from conducting separate operations (which is what is currently happening for all intents and purposes).

Did DL give any assurance that the transition period would be handled in one way or another? If the answer to all three is no then it would appear to be up to management.

Kinda sorta. In October of '08, in a letter from then SVP Crystal Knotek, we were told that all cities that are still M/L for NW would remain so. In cities where a DCI carrier handled DL's operation, M/L would take over for both (above and below wing). The latter has not yet happened.

As for the SOC, someone recently asked on DLNet about it. Here's a cut-n-paste of it:

Rumor: When Delta receives the single operating certificate, all the NW planes would become Delta's....does that mean the IAM scope clause is nullified? Which means Pre-DL will be able to assist in servicing, and will cause us to be way over staffed. Will Delta layoff Pre-NW contract workers (union) before Pre-Delta?

Response: The scope clause remains part of the IAM contracts. However, the scope clause applies to Northwest operations and Northwest work. Following SOC there will not be any Northwest operations or Northwest work, so as a practical matter it will not be possible to assign PMNW or PMDL work separately. We also believe the Railway Labor Act prohibits applying the pre-merger Northwest-IAM contract in a manner that affects pre-merger Delta employees doing Delta work.

We will have just as many aircraft to handle after receiving SOC as we do today so there will be no need for involuntary furloughs as a result of the SOC.



Not a whole lot of substance there...

I also don't have enough detailed knowledge about the issuance of a SOC either. In this case is the NW certificate returned/nullified/void/invalid when the SOC is issued. Certificates have been sold as part of an airline's liquidation. I believe certificates have been held by the acquiring company to be used later if needed, but can't say that is absolutely accurate. If the NW certificate continues to exist after the SOC is issued (even if not used) that might provide the means of forcing DL to honor the contracts' scope language if force becomes necessary.

Interesting theory; I hadn't even thought of that!