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So the House Votes 'Out of Iraq'

jerseyfinn

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Sitting over here in Spain on holiday when I log in and learn that the House votes to pull our troops out. I'm only just beginning to focus after yet another night of wine and food, so I'll be brief.

Not really surprised here, but what sort of global policy ( aside from kissing other peoples' asses ) do the democrats have? It's one thing to throw tantrums & denigrate the president, and quite another to demonstrate leadership.

Since my brain is only just beginning to function this morning, I'll keep my thoughts to the alphabet, specifically the letter 'D':

Defeatest, Democrats, Disavow, Dangerous World.

( I know that 'world' begins with a 'W', but as Nancy would say, WTF ).

Barry
 
They get their wishes they will be left holding the bag.



We don't have any REAL leaders on either side. Defending Bush who wants a major highway thru the country that is exclusively for illegal immigrants and their trucks or the other side who would enact a national Gay holiday and teach the in and outs of perversion to school children. What choice is that!


Until the Lord himself returns expect more of the same with neither side really caring about the general population with both sides doing their own personal flavor of depravity and self interest.


The answer is not some party or some man or twisted women that we now have in power, the answer most will never find but regardless they will continue to argue about it on places like this until they realize the truth a second too late and pay an eternal price for their blind denial.
 
Sitting over here in Spain on holiday when I log in and learn that the House votes to pull our troops out. I'm only just beginning to focus after yet another night of wine and food, so I'll be brief.

Not really surprised here, but what sort of global policy ( aside from kissing other peoples' asses ) do the democrats have? It's one thing to throw tantrums & denigrate the president, and quite another to demonstrate leadership.

Since my brain is only just beginning to function this morning, I'll keep my thoughts to the alphabet, specifically the letter 'D':

Defeatest, Democrats, Disavow, Dangerous World.

( I know that 'world' begins with a 'W', but as Nancy would say, WTF ).

Barry



Seems to be, extracting the US out of Iraq is the start of a fairly good plan. Especially considering that the group who started this whole party is in Pakistan (according to Chertof) training. In case anyone forgot the group in question is Al-Queda. They are lead supposedly by OBL who Bush hardly thinks of any more (by his own admission).

I'll stick with the "D" trend as a description for the dim wits in power - Dense, delusional, detached, deranged, debauched, depraved, dishonored, distorted, damaged, debased, disgraced, degraded ....

Just curious, exactly how has W shown leadership? My understanding is he has pretty my alienated the US from the rest of the world. He has the lowest approval rating in history. His own part is turning against him.
 
One thing will be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN, and that is, if AL-Queda is as "rebuilt" as is reported, and if they are successfull against North America because of their re-energized strenght, the BLAME will lie SQUARLY at the feet of the 3-STOOGES.....BUSH...CHENEY & WOLFOWITZ !!!!!

There wont be one ounce of BLAME left over for Pelosi/Reid/Murtha/ Hillary/Obama etc, etc.

"Yer e'tha wit' us....or a'gin us" !!
(EL-CHIMPO)


NH/BB's
 
They get their wishes they will be left holding the bag.


Well, of course...because it wouldn't make any sense to hold the president responsible for his complete failure to bring this situation under any real control since the invasion of Iraq.

And it wouldn't make any sense to hold the president responsible for the unchallenged growth of al Qaeda (w/ UBL still in charge) from their well-advertised global headquarters in the mountains of Pakistan. All made possible by our mistaken attention on Iraq.

And it wouldn't make any sense to hold the president responsible for his administration's complete mis-management of our homeland security - porous borders, seaports and airports. They can't even keep millions and millions of tubes of poison toothpaste out of the country. Nice work! Of course, it might be easier to do these things if we weren't spending nearly a trillion dollars on the Iraq mistake.

So - of course, by all means - blame it on the people who aren't running this administration. NOT.
 
Leadership in the US working ‘for’ the American people is a non-issue as we have very little, if any. :down:

Left/Right/Middle politicians are grabbing ‘CA$H’ and selling us out to ensure that they have a ‘global’ presence. :mf_boff:

It’s not a ‘Democan-Republicrat-Libotarian’ issue. More so a ‘Marie Antoinette’ syndrome that the general populace is willing to accept because we are ignorant/insignificant/gutless. :blink:

Most of our ‘Leadership’ voted for the war and are now voting against it. WTF? :angry:

Some here quote ‘Murtha’ or ‘Kerry’ as respected sources for substantiating their belief that we should leave Iraq immediately. These ‘experts’ supported the invasion and now waffle 3604+ US lives later. :wacko:

FU(K these guys! :stupid:

And any idiot politician that voted ‘for’ then now recant should be removed from office for their short sighted decision! I only hear of ‘staying’ or ‘leaving’ but no alternative solutions from this mess of oligarchic idiots that we call our representatives.

:rant: Rant Over
 
I'll stick with the "D" trend as a description for the dim wits in power - Dense, delusional, detached, deranged, debauched, depraved, dishonored, distorted, damaged, debased, disgraced, degraded ....

Thanks for keeping the alphabet ball rolling.

I actually agree with some of them as they do indeed apply to this administration.

Yes indeed, there are people in the admnistration who did not do the job or react to the facts. And W himself is also responsible. But I suggest that some words better apply to Rummy & those cohorts who toe the line saying we did not need more troops ( dense, detached, distorted and I would add deceptive).

Yes, Bush also says no to troops, but based upon the advice of his people ( Bush was too loyal to his people and too slow to acknowledge that another approach was needed -- but loyalty is a positive attribute that dems & media are wont to concede exists in this administration ). But in an open democratic society, no one man runs the government or pulls all of the strings. This does however occur in dictatorships or organizations such as al Qaeda where deranged desposts call all of the shots. And this is the disingenuous part of the democrat's argument and the media and all of those Bush haters who set W ( or any president ) up as being the proximate cause of all of the world's woes.

Likewise dishonored and disgraced better fits 'Colon' Powell ( yes, I know his name is Colin, but I'll stick with my spelling ). He was gutless and misleads Bush when he insists upon a return visit to that great American ally, the UN (to whom all of your adjectives along with loads of explecatives apply).

I'm also feelin' a lot of Hillary, Kerry, Pelosi, & Dean in those adjectives as well.

Just curious, exactly how has W shown leadership?

An absolutely fair question. Mr. Bush is indeed an imperfect man. But so are all of us. And this world is indeed dangerous and deceptive.

President Bush demonstrates determined leadership when he stands upon those still smoldering ashes and simply says," We'll git 'em ".

Every American understood perfectly what that meant and there was not one apology owed to anyone's self esteem. The ashes have cooled and they're filling in the hole in NYC, but that fact never changes ( nor have the bad guys ).

I give the President his due for possessing the absolutely correct instinct and I lament the mistakes and miscues which have followed and cause so much grief to our troops, their families, and those caught in the crossfire. But my eyes are wide open to this dangerous, deceptive world in which we live.

Barry
 
Leadership in the US working ‘for’ the American people is a non-issue as we have very little, if any. :down:

. . . any idiot politician that voted ‘for’ then now recant should be removed from office for their short sighted decision! I only hear of ‘staying’ or ‘leaving’ but no alternative solutions from this mess of oligarchic idiots that we call our representatives.

:rant: Rant Over


UAL,

I completely agree with what you're feeling.

Politics by nature, is suppossed to be heated and contentious but at present, American politics is wholly dysfuntional on both sides of the aisle.

A good chunk of those assholes in DC are not working on behalf of the interests of We the People. They kow tow to their wealthy interest groups and some politicians actually believe the BS they talk on the floors of Congress, being the egoist assholes they are.

In some ways, this is nothing new in American history -- though I do caution to remember that those politicos whom we so love to revile come from We the People and they embody each of us. Hopefully this makes one feel uncomfortable and we then get down to the serious business of the national interest of all of the people who will never in truth every agree about everything. But we as a nation must speak with each other & get down to the serious task of issues.

Why this has not yet happened here in these very very dangerous times of terrorist threats is a bit puzzling. The threat is real. Absolute solutions to this threat do not exist. But governments must act and undertake efforts to ensure that terror or terror in concert with tyranny does not act unoppossed. It's a crap shoot no matter what we do or do not do. And make no mistake, America has bungled this initial effort -- but this does not mean that it is wrong to act in these dangerous times.

IMO, we're also caught up in a convergence of history taking all of us on a dangerous turn, and a change in how the media undertakes its role/obligation to inform We the People. Pick up a paper or turn on TV and one no longer sees the "news" ( who, what, how, where, & when ). The media is cloaking "opinion" as what it portrays as news. Mind you, opinion is a legitimate corollary of news, but the story begins and ends with the facts and opinion/editorial is a separate entity.

I don't know why journalism is so shoddy today -- kind of odd given the more fluid nature of technology delivering the news. But it is clearly failing to do the job. From day one, the media has protrayed Mr. Bush as an ass-hole, incompetent leader ( which he is not -- but neither is he a brilliant man, he is simply the Executive of the USA duly elected ).

The media ( and the democrats ) might have gotten away with this portrayal if only 9/11 had not happened and ruined their holier-than-thou liberal fest of denigrating one single man who just happened to be the President. Mr. Bush has done his job as the Executive trying to defend this nation against evil and terror. History will judge how poorly or how well he has done. 9/11 is a challenge to the nation AND a reminder to liberals that it is time to grow up.

Of course the dems and media don't want to wait for history and they continue their own pronouncements which cause the entire nation to drift off topic from the realism of today's world situation.

I'm like you in that I'm sick and tired of politicians who uphold the status quo or stoke this political inertia which keeps our nation adrift in times of trouble. But I'm a hell of a lot madder at the democrats because their arguments and machinations are hurting this nation more than any mistakes the President has made. They are keeping my nation from having an honest dialog about the real problems and dangers that lurk around all of us -- only they lack the guts to say so and they too cloak their words in the same obfuscations that the media employs.

It's gonna be a real interesting 16 months leading up to elections.

Barry
 
Well, of course...because it wouldn't make any sense to hold the president responsible for his complete failure to bring this situation under any real control since the invasion of Iraq . . .

Titan, your argument is non-sequetor. It's an easy short cut to blame one man for the world's woes, but it does not face the reality of the world. Yet lots of folks argue that the entire issue turns upon one specific decision or one mistake made.

Both political parties do this all of the time and they get away with it when the issue is not so dangerous or so important. It now appears that the dems are gonna run the bulk of their campaign on one issue -- Iraq and terror. They will attack the administration on Iraq and kow tow to the voters on terror by insisting that Bush has failed in the war on terror because of Iraq. Poppycock! :shock:

Iraq and terrorism are related. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's time for all of the politicians and the media to stop blowing smoke about these issues.

National opinion is indeed against the war. But this does not equate shrieking/screaming John Dean liberals with red state mom and pops who also want America out of Iraq. The former opposes because of instinctive liberal idealism & their unrelenting Bush hatred, and the later is simply disgusted with dysfunctional Islam which has now unleashed an internescine insurgency. So the democrats think they're being really coy here as they try to hitch two teams of horses together who in truth run in opposite directions.

The whole problem here is about the failure of the democrats and the media to embrace realism. The former are afraid to do so because it creates inconvenient political truths and the later because the media is too busy preening in front of the monitors admiring itself. So the dems oppose the administration for the sake of opposition. They embrace conditional arguments of what should be ( a happy perfect world ) rather than critiquing the world as it really is ( complex, promising, dangerous, amoral ).

A debate posited against realism concedes the reality of the moment.

Dysfunctional Islam. A weak Baghdad government with limited power against insurgency. Ethnically divided Iraq. An idealistic American nation which attempts to utilize its power, but lack the historic wisdom of empire necessary to devise an occupation strategy which takes the region and culture into full account. No where in this world of realism is Mr. Bush an incompetent ass-hole. He is however a leader of a powerful nation who has made some significant mistakes. In other words, he is human, and America remains a guiding light no matter what sort of spin the dems or media put onto the issue.

What is lacking is the political courage to admit what is good about this decision to place our nation at the front of the line against terror and tyranny ( kudos to Mr. Leiberman for his courage ).

In terms of realism, America is the nation taking it on the chin. It's our guys and gals risking life and limb while Europe prevaricates and Iran plots and plans mayhem in concert with Al Qaeda. We serve the Iraqi people grateful or not as well as the interests of Europe. America has stepped in a Texas-sized cowpie in Iraq.

To run or not to run?

Realism suggests that this decision is not on the table at this time. An abrupt withdrawal now could make the region worse with a ripple effect as insurgency swells and other foreign powers step into the vacuum. Yep, in the dems idealistic "should be" world it would be nice indeed to cut and run. But for the near term, we're stuck with a mess.

Realism says that European governments should be grateful for the American presence in the region. We relieve European politicos of body counts and adverse public opinion at the polls while they benefit from not having to make any tough decisions about the real world in which they also live. Of course these same Euro politicians return the favor by lining up with the media and the dems in denigrating our president as well.

Yet if Iraq falls and drops into internescine civil war and (soon to be nuclear ) Iran jumps into the scene compelling other governments to act (Turkey, Saudia Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Egypt ), then one will lament the good old days when America was there.

I'm not arguing on behalf of an unconditional American presence in Iraq or anywhere else. I do argue on behalf of realism as it is and not as Nancy or Hillary or the media tell me it is suppossed to be. That sort of idealism can get me killed in today's world.

Our options are more limited today than they were three or four years ago. We are in a mess, make no mistake about it. The prize is not the White House as the democrats now clearly define their own Iraq policy. The prize is to calm the fire burning in Iraq and throughout dysfunctional Islam ( which must face its own reality ). We have to play the cards that we're holding, not the jokers that the dems want to throw down on the table.

Barry
 
Wow, you really should go into politics as an advisor. Your eloquent speech and ability to obfuscate, divert attention are nothing short of impressive.

Yes, one man does run the government (at least the executive branch) and that person is the POTUS. He is the only elected official in the executive branch. Cheney said he is not nor ever was part of it so he does not count any more. The POTUS or as W likes to call him self “The Decide†is in charge. He is responsible for any and all actions that are taken by his administration.

Loyalty is an admirable trait, but the loyalty of the W administration is misplaced. Their loyalty should not be to the POTUS and in my opinion it should never be under any administration. The loyalty should be to the people who elected the POTUS. Their loyalty should be to US and the to the USA. We are their boss, not the other way around. Remember the part of the Gettysburg Address that says “and that government of the people, by the people, for the people,†Bush hires ‘yes’ men and women. He does not have the leadership capabilities to hire people who will stand against him when they feel he is wrong. He sees him self a King and that is the way his staff treats him.

When did Colin Powell mislead the POTUS? My understanding is it was the other way around. He was given bad info by the POTUS and went ahead and sold it as truth. He knew he got sold down the river but he kept his mouth closed. He is a soldier and a damn good one at that. I am he will voice the truth at some point, whether in his memoirs after his death or perhaps once W is out of office he will tell his side of the story.

When he says “we’ll git’em†all I have to say to that IS BS. Bush already said he does not think of OBL anymore. The CIA has already disbanded the group that was tasked to find him. According to Chertoff, Al-Queda is in Pakistan training and have been for years but W is off chasing his legacy in Iraq and Iran. The person who is responsible for 9-11 is not even being pursued anymore.

Correct instinct? I would have agreed had you mentioned Afghanistan but it appears you are referencing Iraq and it has already been proven time and time again that they had no link to 9-11, no link to OBL (Sadam hate that SOB) and no WMD. Mean while OBL and his tribe or merry men are training in Pakistan trying to figure out a way to attack again.

The Dems are preventing the country from having an honest dialogue? Now that is rich. This admin has done everything in its power to prevent any type of dialogue that goes against it’s plan. They are the ones who have instituted a “you’re either for us or against us†mentality. Fortunately the people got fed up with his dictatorial mentality and hypocritical party in the 2006 elections and told him that enough is enough. They have done everything in their power to prevent free speech about the issues. They talk about stained dresses and don’t blink an eye when an administration official lies to protect his boss, jeopardizes years of CIA work and then gets rewarded for same.

Calm Iraq? You are indeed a funny man. It is in a civil war. They have been at each others throats for centuries. You will not bring peace their in our life time and more than likely not several life times. To waste countless more American lives there is criminal. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and nothing to do with terrorism as it is currently defined. Saudi Arabia one could argue did. Pakistan certainly does. Why are they not in the conversation? Don’t bother, we all know the answer.

You try and portray your self as impartial and neutral but yet every time you slam the Dems and try to portray the Repubs as victims of circumstance who are trying to do the best that they can. Keep trying.

The world denigrates W because he is an arrogant, blinded fool. He listens to those who support him (fewer and fewer by the day), lambaste and brow beats those who have the audacity to speak out against King.
 
President Bush demonstrates determined leadership when he stands upon those still smoldering ashes and simply says," We'll git 'em ".
And while he was standing in those ashes and saying "We'll git 'em", 99.9% of the US population and the WORLD was behind him. But a funny thing happened on the way to the Taliban...somehow Saddam Hussein became a bigger threat to the US. Even though Saddam had nothing to do with creating the pile of ashes he was standing on. And despite the stance of our allies, Bush "led" us into Iraq. And in the process, he was quoted that he "doesn't think about Osama bin Laden". And perhaps his most memorable quote has been " Bring 'em on". Boy, did they ever. That's some great leadership there...too bad it inspired the OTHER guys.

In December 1941, Pearl Harbor was bombed. 16 monoths later, the mastermind of that attack was dead. Today, almost 6 YEARS after the attack on the World Trade Center...the mastermind is still out there.
 
The OLD MAN.....George H W Bush, must cringe, when he see's his IDIOT son :blink: :blink: saying some of the moronic things that he does.

Betcha' that was "one time" that GB senior wishes he had ...."Fired a BLANK" 🙁 🙁


NH/BB's
 
W and Cheney are the poster children for abortion.

Thanks for proving my point Garfield. Kind words spoken with that usual democrat hatred in the name of mankind -- priceless.

I myself don't equate my words with those of politicians. I am someone who is definitely not pleased with American politics on both sides of the aisle.

By all means, take your pot shots as that's the nature of this forum. But make no mistake, I do post here my earnest thoughts and opinions and my views are liberal in the real sense of the word. I'm not kow towing to anyone nor do I hold rigid beliefs other than honesty, integrity,& learning -- we'll all make mistakes in life, but those will keep us on our feet. I see a world which is not the black/white world that politicians, reactionaries, or single issue advocates try to paint it to be ( so that means I don't embrace the John Dean crowd, the Moral Majority folks, Islamists, or Bulemics of America ). View my words in shades of grey because that's what life is. (of course BS also comes in differnt shades/smells too :blink: )

Democrats are happy and cuddly so long as their point of view is the only accepted point of view. Disagree with them or point out that they are wrong, and they label you a biggot, or worse still, a conservative. :shock: Dems sound exactly like Bolsheviks - he who is not with us, is against.

The greatest irony of those John Dean folks who masquerade as "liberals", is that they are the most intollerant folks around with what is an extremely narrow world view. American Taliban is an apt description.

I don't disagree that Iraq is mess and that we're better off getting the hell out. But when the children ( I'm sorry, democrats ) stop screaming and shrieking, there's this thing called reality which still has to be dealt with. Vilifying the president & obstructing the conduct of the government does not change this reality -- and it is a terrible reality at the moment. It's instructive how the dems have elected to focus their campaign. I also believe it a mistake to oppose without first offering clear policy alternatives which conform to the reality on the ground.

I doubt that left-leaning dems will ever concede that the real world is entirely different than the idealist paradise they construct in their heads. Just understand that the view and vision advocated by Nancy, Hillary, or Obama does not necessarily represent that of mainstream America which is indeed thoughtful, optimistic, has a sense of humor, and yes, is quite disgusted with events in Iraq. You confuse the fact that this mainstream on occassion does vote with the dems which deludes dems into believing that the mainstream agrees with all of the views/policy of the dems -- they don't -- it's called dissent and when done politely dialog.

But what do I know, I'm just an American citizen employing some of my Constitutional guarantees ( notice that I do not use the word "right" as a right conveys a privilage which is itself conditional upon specific requirements/behavior. All of this stuff in turn derives from realism.)

Hey, it's the weekend. Toss back a few.

Barry
 
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