Some More Interesting Info re: F/A LBFO

[jimntx]

Got this from the same friend. However, I don't know the original author or the source. That being said there are some very interesting points made--particularly in regard to conversations directly with the union about the LBFO. For instance, did you know that the union has agreed not to dispute any bonusses awarded to the executives? Again, I have underlined or otherwise highlighted some points I found particularly startling.

Just FYI...

YOU NEED TO READ THIS BEFORE YOU VOTE!

Then post, and send, but kindly be sure to erase the senders email when you forward it.

For those who are looking to leave, just remember; Delta’s F/A's were offered $100,000, and UAL’s F/A's were offered $65,000 to those who could leave early. Our union expects thousands to leave. Well, Delta only had 900 to leave with that large amount of money they were offered, so I can only say, 'Really?'


Aug. 6th, 2012 [with additional information obtained on Aug, 8th]
I received a large envelope from the union today. There is nothing new; the same TA from APFA and Jetnet web-sites. I called the union ‘Fact Line’ to ask several questions.
Here Are The Bullet Points:

Question: Is this TA the actual contract language as it seems vague in many areas?
Answer: No, quote [the language] "Is very liquid, and needs to be tweaked here and there.”

Question: This means much is left up for our interpretation?
Answer: Well, they will have to work out the details.

Question: Have we ever voted on a contract without actual language to read before? Is this common practice to just receive highlights?
Answer: “No-No.”

Question: Page 2 #10, On Pay Protection; this doesn't read like 100% pay protection without stipulations?

Question: Do we have to go on make-up for pay protection?
Answer: “Yes, the trip has to fit into the footprint."

Question: What does this mean?
Answer: “This means the same days of the trip lost plus one.”

FYI: You will be required to be available for that time in order to get pay protection. UAL’s language for pay protection is 100% protection without any stipulations.

Question: If a turn cancels would I be required to sit stand-by [in order] to be pay protected?
Answer: "Yes"

Question: Page 19, #1. This section keeps using the word, ‘Unsecured Claims of equity, not secured?’ To me unsecured claims are worthless?
Answer: "It means, whatever AA says. Claims could be given in any number of ways; stock, money..." They clarified it today [August 8th] both the attorneys; with AAL and the Union have agreed that the equity is in stock and will be paid to the union then the union will distribute it to the flight attendants.

FYI: Remember it is still unsecured!

Question: Page 20 #3 says our union will be paid up to five million dollars if this passes. What is this for and if it is a BK law? Why is it in our contract? BK laws require companies to pay legal fees, APFA fees will probably be more than this amount.
Answer: No answer to why it is in our contract if it is a BK law. No answer to; if we could collect more under BK laws. According to today’s inquiry it is already costing more.

Question: Page 21 #9 Am I reading this right??? APFA agrees not to contest management bonuses in respect to the sacrifices made by them during BK??? Answer: "Yes.”

Question: Who puts this in a contract? It's my constitutional 1st amendment right of Freedom of Speech to protest anything I believe unfair or unjust? Answer: “It means the union cannot organize a public picket but individuals can still protest.” Today it was learned this clause was definitely non-negotiable, and it is in all three contracts without a doubt.

Question: I see this as a statement that management intends to receive big bonuses to exit BK is this correct?
Answer: "I would say so."

FYI: An article in the New York Times reported, "AMR executives might receive $300 million to $600 million in AMR stock when the company emerges from bankruptcy."

The Gag Order Language:

"Subject to the foregoing, APFA agrees not to object to or contest the issuance of equity or other consideration in the Bankruptcy Cases to the Company's non-union and management employees, in respect of the sacrifices made by them in furtherance of the Company's effort to restructure or as incentive for the non-union and management employees' future service to the Company."

Question: Page 6 #1, 2nd paragraph, says the company is not required to maintain or fund or provide benefits under a defined pension plan, does this mean the company does not plan to fund our frozen pensions and let it go to the PBGC, which does not fund medical retirement; when and if it should go there.
Answer: “Yes?” However, [will have] ‘To get back to me.’

FYI: The Company plans for the frozen pension funds to go to PBGC

Today the representative said that our pension plan is not frozen presently. They anticipate the company to freeze them September 1, 2012.

Rumor: The NMB has not released a work group for self-help in 11 years [to take work action].
False: Spirit pilots were released by NMB in May of 2010, and were on strike for 5 days in June of 2010. [Search: Spirit Pilots + Strike and/or National Mediation Board Released Pilots]

Rumor: United FA’s are still under an imposed contract from BK.
False: They voted yes for a contract in BK and have been working under it, and now they just received a TA to vote on for a merger contract and it will expire in 2014.

AAL is proposing in this LBFO for us to work under the industry’s lowest standard agreement until 2018; a minimum of 6 years.

Rumor: We’ll be stuck with 1113/term sheet for at least 6-10 years.
False: Nobody knows~ Longest on record is 10 months.

 

[Bob Owens]

Got this from the same friend. However, I don't know the original author or the source. That being said there are some very interesting points made--particularly in regard to conversations directly with the union about the LBFO. For instance, did you know that the union has agreed not to dispute any bonusses awarded to the executives? Again, I have underlined or otherwise highlighted some points I found particularly startling.

Just FYI...

YOU NEED TO READ THIS BEFORE YOU VOTE!

Then post, and send, but kindly be sure to erase the senders email when you forward it.

For those who are looking to leave, just remember; Delta’s F/A's were offered $100,000, and UAL’s F/A's were offered $65,000 to those who could leave early. Our union expects thousands to leave. Well, Delta only had 900 to leave with that large amount of money they were offered, so I can only say, 'Really?'


Aug. 6th, 2012 [with additional information obtained on Aug, 8th]
I received a large envelope from the union today. There is nothing new; the same TA from APFA and Jetnet web-sites. I called the union ‘Fact Line’ to ask several questions.
Here Are The Bullet Points:

Question: Is this TA the actual contract language as it seems vague in many areas?
Answer: No, quote [the language] "Is very liquid, and needs to be tweaked here and there.”

Question: This means much is left up for our interpretation?
Answer: Well, they will have to work out the details.

Question: Have we ever voted on a contract without actual language to read before? Is this common practice to just receive highlights?
Answer: “No-No.”

Question: Page 2 #10, On Pay Protection; this doesn't read like 100% pay protection without stipulations?

Question: Do we have to go on make-up for pay protection?
Answer: “Yes, the trip has to fit into the footprint."

Question: What does this mean?
Answer: “This means the same days of the trip lost plus one.”

FYI: You will be required to be available for that time in order to get pay protection. UAL’s language for pay protection is 100% protection without any stipulations.

Question: If a turn cancels would I be required to sit stand-by [in order] to be pay protected?
Answer: "Yes"

Question: Page 19, #1. This section keeps using the word, ‘Unsecured Claims of equity, not secured?’ To me unsecured claims are worthless?
Answer: "It means, whatever AA says. Claims could be given in any number of ways; stock, money..." They clarified it today [August 8th] both the attorneys; with AAL and the Union have agreed that the equity is in stock and will be paid to the union then the union will distribute it to the flight attendants.

FYI: Remember it is still unsecured!

Question: Page 20 #3 says our union will be paid up to five million dollars if this passes. What is this for and if it is a BK law? Why is it in our contract? BK laws require companies to pay legal fees, APFA fees will probably be more than this amount.
Answer: No answer to why it is in our contract if it is a BK law. No answer to; if we could collect more under BK laws. According to today’s inquiry it is already costing more.

Question: Page 21 #9 Am I reading this right??? APFA agrees not to contest management bonuses in respect to the sacrifices made by them during BK??? Answer: "Yes.”

Question: Who puts this in a contract? It's my constitutional 1st amendment right of Freedom of Speech to protest anything I believe unfair or unjust? Answer: “It means the union cannot organize a public picket but individuals can still protest.” Today it was learned this clause was definitely non-negotiable, and it is in all three contracts without a doubt.

Question: I see this as a statement that management intends to receive big bonuses to exit BK is this correct?
Answer: "I would say so."

FYI: An article in the New York Times reported, "AMR executives might receive $300 million to $600 million in AMR stock when the company emerges from bankruptcy."

The Gag Order Language:

"Subject to the foregoing, APFA agrees not to object to or contest the issuance of equity or other consideration in the Bankruptcy Cases to the Company's non-union and management employees, in respect of the sacrifices made by them in furtherance of the Company's effort to restructure or as incentive for the non-union and management employees' future service to the Company."

Question: Page 6 #1, 2nd paragraph, says the company is not required to maintain or fund or provide benefits under a defined pension plan, does this mean the company does not plan to fund our frozen pensions and let it go to the PBGC, which does not fund medical retirement; when and if it should go there.
Answer: “Yes?” However, [will have] ‘To get back to me.’

FYI: The Company plans for the frozen pension funds to go to PBGC

Today the representative said that our pension plan is not frozen presently. They anticipate the company to freeze them4:30 minimum day (we had this in a previous contract).

Fact: Average day decreases from 3 hours to 2 hours.

Rumor: The NMB has not released a work group for self-help in 11 years [to take work action].
False: Spirit pilots were released by NMB in May of 2010, and were on strike for 5 days in June of 2010. [Search: Spirit Pilots + Strike and/or National Mediation Board Released Pilots]

Rumor: United FA’s are still under an imposed contract from BK.
False: They voted yes for a contract in BK and have been working under it, and now they just received a TA to vote on for a merger contract and it will expire in 2014.

AAL is proposing in this LBFO for us to work under the industry’s lowest standard agreement until 2018; a minimum of 6 years.

Rumor: We’ll be stuck with 1113/term sheet for at least 6-10 years.
False: Nobody knows~ Longest on record is 10 months.

The Pilots voted NO, and 75% of all the mechanics you guys ever see also voted to reject what the company was offering, 96% of the Aircraft Mechanics in the northeast voted NO.

Unlike other BKs where the holdouts had no support my bet is the mechanics you guys see on the line will be supportive if you guys decide to join up with the Pilots and say no to this BS.

 

[swamt]

The Pilots voted NO, and 75% of all the mechanics you guys ever see also voted to reject what the company was offering, 96% of the Aircraft Mechanics in the northeast voted NO.

Unlike other BKs where the holdouts had no support my bet is the mechanics you guys see on the line will be supportive if you guys decide to join up with the Pilots and say no to this BS.

I tend to agree with you Bob. If the F/A's vote this down overwhelming like the pilots did, they will have the support they need for both groups. If they pass this LBO then I believe the pilots will be on their own and the company will treat them as the outsiders, and it will take their group the longest to recover any losses incurred by this BK in the future, if any at all.

 

[bluebird]

“Question: Have we ever voted on a contract without actual language to read before? Is this common practice to just receive highlights?
Answer: “No-No.””

"We Have to Pass the Bill So That You Can Find Out What Is In It." ~ Nancy Pelosi

[Pilots union prepares membership for bankruptcy ruling] “A federal bankruptcy judge in New York is expected to rule today on American Airline's request to void the company's labor contract with its pilots but there seems to be little doubt in the minds of the union's leadership about the outcome.

In a website message today, the Allied PIlots said American management has already "indicated that they will meet with APA early next week in order to discuss the implementation of the 1113 term sheet."

The term is the wages and work rules the company has said it would impose if the union contract is voided and if it could not reach a new negotiated contract with the APA.

The pilots union overwhelmingly rejected the company's final offer last week leaving it up to U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane to rule on AMR and American's motion to throw out the existing contract. Lane is expected to issue that ruling this afternoon.

- Bob Cox”

Read more here: http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/#storylink=cpy

Guess there’s more to talk about.

“Rumor: We’ll be stuck with 1113/term sheet for at least 6-10 years.
False: Nobody knows~ Longest on record is 10 months.”

We’ll need a signed agreement between both parties eventually. It ain’t over til the fat lady sings.

"...[O]ur union will be paid up to five million dollars if this passes.

Maybe she's already singing?

“Forget the fat lady. You're obsessed with fat lady.” ~ David Levinson, Independence Day

 

[737823]

Got this from the same friend. However, I don't know the original author or the source. That being said there are some very interesting points made--particularly in regard to conversations directly with the union about the LBFO. For instance, did you know that the union has agreed not to dispute any bonusses awarded to the executives? Again, I have underlined or otherwise highlighted some points I found particularly startling.

Why should APFA be protesting management compensation in the first place? They should strive to achieve the best contract possible, not worrying about management compensation and things outside their control. The management bonuses are stock awards and were agreed upon as part of the 2003 RPA. Not sure what arrangements they have made going forward post BK but a compensation committee deemed the awards were appropriate. It's very sad, in this country people used to see the wealthy ("1%" as Occupy Wall St. says) and strive to be one of them. Nowadays it seems everyone is out to soak and destroy the 1%. Go look at the donor rolls of any university, museum, community center, religious organization that you utilize and be thankful those people are both in a position to give and are generous enough to make a difference in your community.

Josh

 

[nbmcg01]

Josh, get real...that FINE talent is what got AA into the mess it finds itself....oh yes, it really isn't a mess but a way to destroy decades of collective bargaining by USING bk in a way it was never intended. Executive compensation gains on the backs of the worker bees is especially heinous given the demands under the term sheet.

 

[737823]

Josh, get real...that FINE talent is what got AA into the mess it finds itself....oh yes, it really isn't a mess but a way to destroy decades of collective bargaining by USING bk in a way it was never intended. Executive compensation gains on the backs of the worker bees is especially heinous given the demands under the term sheet.

Heinous demands on the term sheet? Compare the productivity and costs (different than wages) AA FAs impose and compare to your competition at B6, CO, DL, UA, WN, etc and its easy to see why AA is at a disadvantage. What about all the FAs that AA has on the payroll that haven't flown in months milking the company for health care and travel benefits? The management bonuses do not come off the backs of workers. AA isn't seeking to undo years of collective bargaining, they are seeking to go their house and costs in order. If making changes to collectively bargained benefits and work rules is required as an intermediate step so be it.

Look at the status of negotiations for unions at other companies, many of which are profitable. Workers in those unions aren't striving for more, they just want to hold onto what they have. Take Verizon for example. They are still resolving a one year dispute since the strike last summer over pensions, retiree medical, holidays, vacation pay, and other workrules. Wasn't their a strike at Disney World last fall over the company's use of PT workers and seeking to change other benefits? This is not unique to AA, there are reforms to collective bargaining going on everywhere not just in the public sector.

Maybe APFA should make a YouTube like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEo4cvW6JEk


Josh

 

[xUT]

Why should APFA be protesting management compensation in the first place? They should strive to achieve the best contract possible, not worrying about management compensation and things outside their control. The management bonuses are stock awards and were agreed upon as part of the 2003 RPA. Not sure what arrangements they have made going forward post BK but a compensation committee deemed the awards were appropriate. It's very sad, in this country people used to see the wealthy ("1%" as Occupy Wall St. says) and strive to be one of them. Nowadays it seems everyone is out to soak and destroy the 1%. Go look at the donor rolls of any university, museum, community center, religious organization that you utilize and be thankful those people are both in a position to give and are generous enough to make a difference in your community.

Josh

Get real Josh. Management is expecting a big BK payday on exit and doesn't want a brouhaha about how much they are compensated while screwing everyone else. UA didn't like the negativity after exit and I am sure AA doesn't want the same treatment.
If this isn't the case, then why have it put into a contract?
B) xUT

 

[IORFA]

If you went to the road show, you would have gotten an answer. The union can't protest in court only. They CAN protest on the UCC as well. You, I and anyone else can protest anytime, anywhere. Also, your favorite union has posted the letter from AA that veifys what they said all along. That AA won't limit the amount of acceptances for the VEOP. So that should make you happy and you can now stop complaining about it and using it as proof that you know APFA lies. In regards to the early outs at Delta, I'm not sure about theirs, but United's was 15 years of company seniority as a minimum and then $2400 a year UP TO $60,000. On top of that everyone got a $5000 signing bonus. Which is much healthier than ours and is very helpful. So if you had 15 years, you got a total of $36,000 for the earlyout and then the $5000 signing bonus. So the more senior you were, the more you got. Point is, not everyone got $65,000. Plus theirs wasn't while they were in bankruptcy. Is ours the best, no. Is it the worst, no.

 

[bluebird]

What about all the FAs that AA has on the payroll that haven't flown in months milking the company for health care and travel benefits?

If you drop trips you do not get benefits. You go out and buy your own (which is fair of course).

 

[IORFA]

He knows that, he just chooses not to believe it. It doesn't help his mantra that we are all over paid and under worked!

 

[jimntx]

On the pay protection...

It occurred to me that the Fact Line is admitting that it is just like end-of-month pay protection is now. You have to be available to work a trip that has the same "footprint"--i.e., same days + 1. So, if the busted trip falls where you have been scheduled 3 on, 1 off, 3 on, they can deny you pay protection because "there isn't a trip the exact same days, and to assign you a trip that includes the +1 day will make you illegal for that next trip." Gotcha. It will be just like now. They will find any excuse they can to avoid paying you for a busted trip.

 

[bluebird]

“AA will be offering a Travel Separation Program (TSP) under the LBFO to with the following criteria:
• Unlimited D2 travel for the employee, spouse, domestic partner and dependent children [Five or ten years of travel and then travel privileges cease]
• Five to nine years of company seniority equals five years of travel
• Ten years or more of company seniority equals ten years of travel
• No D1, D3, A9, Parent, Registered Companion, Other Airline Travel or ID20 is included with TSP
• Imputed income for travel begins after 90 days
• No age requirement [If you separate before the age of 50, you will not be considered a retiree. You will loose: life, medical, dental, AA travel privileges, OA travel privileges, etc.)]
• Every qualified request for the TSP will be accepted. The TSP will begin following the VEOP election period.
If the LBFO passes, the election period for the VEOP will begin Monday, August 20, 2012, at 0100 Central and closes Saturday, September 15, 2012, at 2300 Central. The TSP election period will open Monday, September 17, 2012, at 0100 Central and close Sunday, September 23, 2012 at 2300 Central…” 15 Aug 12

 

[IORFA]

I see you added the little bit about age 50, problem is that everyone is losing the post employment medical, dental and life if you take the TSP or if you stay active. The pass loss is also the same if you leave under anything the company has offered before age 50. Basically, no new information.

 

[bluebird]

...[E]veryone is losing the post employment medical, dental and life if you take the TSP or if you stay active...

We have contracts with AA.