Someone Tell Me This Isn't True...please.

[cap]

I saw a program last evening about a recent Arctic Exercise that was held on Baffin Island and area by the CAF. There came a point where they said that the flight of Griffins involved, couldn't get on site because of the weather. They interviewed the flight commander and he went on at some length to describe where the actual Magnetic North was and how this presented them with a problem because their compasses weren't reliable, so they couldn't make the flight.

Someone that knows, please tell me that they have GPS and other navigation aids onboard. Please don't tell me that the Griffons only have a compass. I didn't believe what I heard, but my wife confirmed what I had neard as she was laughing.

The SeaKing in the story was assigned to sling all the equipment to shore from a Frigate and it went u/s after 4 slings and the Inuit had to bring the troops ashore on their boats. I thought for a moment that I was watching "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" and was tempted to check the TV Guide to confirm.

 

[CD]

Oh ya, that particular exercise was quite the news at the time:

Military exercise to reaffirm Arctic claims

Sea King helicopter grounded after engine fire

Military to probe how soldiers went missing

Missing Canadian soldiers found after Arctic exercise

Armed forces win narrow victory over Nunavut weather

 

[graunch1]

Once again our mighty Armed Farces leaders prove that they spend little time and effort on learning anything about the teensy little bit of Canada that doesn't reside in Ottawa.
Reading the news stories reinforces the fact that these guys know diddly about Arctic ops. Dropping two guys off 3 k out of town with no radio,no GPS and no brains proves the point.
As far as the Griffens being equipped with only a compass is concerned question, I would guess it would take an Order in Parliament to provide some hand-held GPS receives to the troops. I am sure the original spec was for the helis to only be used for cerimonial purposes in the Ottawa area <_<

 

[sharkbait]

Can anybody spell Astro Compass, Bearing tables, blade and body covers?
Someone has told me that they are going to stop publishing the bearing tables- I still have mine and my trusty Astro compass in my bookcase.
I am sure there is more than one person on this forum who has flown the area concerned with a Bell 47, S-55 or Super Cub or Beaver ect ect. in the good old pre GPS days.
Still I am sure that it is not the will that is lacking but the necessary skill set just is not there either at the headquarters or Squadron level.
I see they are planning a repeat in 2008. I wonder how many people who were on this exercise will even be in the Forces then? How will the skills learned on this voyage be passed on?
Perhaps more frequent, smaller scale missions would lead to the development / rediscovery of the necessary skills to operate in the "Harsh Northern Enviroment"
Perhaps it would be a good idea to get a few FN's outa mothballs and purchase some appropriate hunting cartridges because .223 cal. with ball ammo just ain't gonna impress a polar bear. The rangers may not always be in range so to speak and laws notwithstanding it may be necessary to shoot one of the critters.
Our Armed Forces have been bled white by the boys in Ottawa and yet they expect them to carry out this type of thing without the right tools or skills.
How can we help them to achieve this? Perhaps people on this forum can somehow pass on skills and knowledge to them - but how???? Is anyone at DND willing to listen?

 

[Batfink]

CAP

The griffon has a GPS integrated into it's nav system - not a great one mind you (definitely not TSO'd - it doesn't even have a Jeppesen database capability), but if it's serviceable, it works great. It also has Doppler nav - a pain in the a** to keep updated, but if you can read a map, you can keep it updated.

Not sure what the flight commander was on about with the magnetic north thing, but I know the WX was Dog Balls for a while.

Sharkbait,

I'm pretty sure that heads would explode if they were reduced to using an Astro Compass. When I was in (not long ago at all) there wasn't even mention that such a thing existed, let alone how it worked. (I remember the basics from my CPL exams, but I wouldn't know one if it hit me in the tail rotor)

 

[cap]

Batfink ----- I can only assume these possibilities then:

1) The Dopplar was u/s on ALL the a/c.
2) All GPS's were u/s.
3) They were all functioning properly, but no member of the crews knew how to use them.
4) They had no maps.
5) The flight commander was lying or didn't know what he was talking about, was drunk or on "bad weed".

The flight was supposedly composed of 4-5 Griffons and I would hope that if one had a navigation problem, that not all would also have to return to their start point. IF that was the arrangement, then they have some very serious problems and a very steep learning curve should they be mounting a mission or attack in reality. I was also amazed that the Frigate was only able to make 5kts because their hulls are way too thin for operation in those waters and it wouldn't take much to injure one of the Frigates apparently. Sadly, the Danes, Russians, US and Sweden have this capability.....and we don't.

I would not expect them to be able to take an Astro shot because there are many in the aviation community that wouldn't have a clue how to do it. I would expect though, that they could match the civilian world's navigation abilities, if not surpass them

Based on the information I presently have, the CAF also needs instruction from the civilian pilot's world on other things than mountain flying. It would also appear that out esteemed partners from the engineering fraternity should have their help enlisted also. This is truly sad and we are the 2nd largest country in the world with 210,000kms of coastline to protect........God help us.

 

[Sticky]

Before we condemn the CF here you have to take the media reports with a serious grain of salt. They will tend to sensationalize events in the constant pursuit of increased sales of their stories. I haven't seen the interview with the Flight Commander so I can't comment on what was said but it wouldn't surprise me if his statement was somewhat "bent" by the reporter. The Griffon is quite capable navigation-wise with integrated GPS (I concur with BatFink that it is notoriously unreliable and needs an upgrade) and Doppler and the crews are very conversant with how to use them - almost to the detriment of the tried and true Watch - Map - Ground nav technique. The loss of one or more navaids in a flight of five would not mean that the mission would be scrubbed - another aircraft could easily take over navigation responsibilities. There is undoubtedly more to the story here than articulated by the press and assumed by others in this forum.

Although I never saw the Astral Compass installed on the Griffon we certainly used them in the Twin Huey in the arctic (I have the scars on my forehead where I whacked it a few times climbing in to prove it) and we were trained to use it - no GPS back then..and my head never exploded...sorry BatFink 😛 We also kept an FN in the back for any bear problems.

That said, experience levels in the CF have declined in recent years and current operations have necessitated that much more emphasis be placed on deployed operations (Bosnia, Kosovo, etc...) and their commensurate "warfighting" skills than on domestic capability. Arctic operations are far, far less frequent than they used to be - mistakes will be made and the media will happily and immediately pounce on them and apply their own spin.

Yes, the crew on the ground should have been more prepared than they were and probably got sucked into thinking that 3 km wasn't a big deal. Hard lesson to learn and won't be repeated...for a while anyway.

Anyway, I'd be more willing to give the aircrews the benefit of doubt here before believing "carte blanche" the medias' versions of events. Remember, this is the same media that considers Scott Taylor an expert in military affairs but that's another story (or rant).

 

[cap]

Sticky ----- I didn't "read" this report, I saw the man moving his lips and heard what he was saying. There was no commentary by the reporter as he was talking nor was he interrupted. They were with the military onsite and reported that the SeaKing that was filmed slinging from the Friagte to shore, did so 4 times and was then grounded. It also said and showed the Inuit being asked to get the troops off the Frigate and back to shore and showed them doing so.

None of this is to be taken as a reflection of the quality of the personnel in the CAF. They cannot be asked "to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t" either. I grew up on the East coast so I saw the deterioration happening right before my eyes. I think this example says it all: In 1963 I was in Grade XII in Halifax and one day they made a big deal about us seeing these new state-of-the-art Seakings that the RCN had acquired fly down Halifax Harbour. I turned 60 yrs old this year and we are still using them and they will not be retired until 2009 we are told. That ain't the fault of the CAF personnel and that's a definite.

 

[Sticky]

Cap, I know you saw the interview and since I haven't I can't fully appreciate the comments made by the Flight Commander. All I'm saying is that there is probably more to the story than provided in the interview... Its been my experience that journalists don't always do the best research and for all we know he was actually talking to a Flight Engineer and identified him as the Flight Commander... it happens. Also, guys that haven't been exposed to the media very much can, and will, say strange things that even make THEM shake their heads once the heat and light of the cameras are no longer upon them. I'm sure this guy had a few sleepless nights after he saw the tape aired. As for the Sea King going U/S after four slings...like you say, they're old and need to be replaced.

I can assure you that the crews are hardworking, intelligent, and well-trained, but underfunded, overworked, and more than a little frustrated with the few flying hours they are provided each year. I'm no longer in the Forces but I get uncomfortable when folks willingly embrace the medias' side of a story without contest and go so far as to declare that this proves that the CF leadership is myopic, and reinforces the fact that they know diddlysquat about arctic operations...sorry graunch1, but that was a pretty harsh indictment and struck a sour note with me.

As an aside, I can tell you that if the CF had the ability to make unilateral procurement decisions without undo influence from parliament, their inventory would look a lot different than it is today. Unfortunately operational capability has to be balanced with the invariable economic spinoffs and that's where much of their procurement needs fall off the rails. The CF wouldn't have purchased the Griffon, the Sea King would have long been gone, and the Labrador would have been history a lot sooner than it was. Instead "chicken salad" is the order of the day and the crews learn to tolerate the taste.

 

[cap]

Sticky -----the Officer being interviewed had two wide stripes and a small one in the middle.......that's a Major to me. It was backed up by another interview taken by the Griffon and was done with the a/c commander of that flight. He reinterated the same.

I'm more than well aware of how the media can distort interviews because I'm a Canadian that did time in Vietnam.

I know full well that this shouldn't be blamed on the forces. If you or anyone else is expecting that Canada will ever give the military a set budget to work with and ALLOW them to purchase the equipment THEY deem necessary without political ok........ well you've got a long wait. That's the way that it's done in the States and has been for eons, but we won't allow that in Canada and never have. We believe that some elected, former Chartered Accountant who has never served in any military, knows more than an experienced "flag Officer" of 20+ years. It proves the idiots do and can run the asylum. The idiots don't have much of a military anymore either and if they thought they could get away with it, wouldn't have any.

 

[Sticky]

Well Cap, I'm at a loss to explain their navigational difficulties. Someone who was actually there will need to wade in on this one.

As for my long wait for political non-interference... I know of which you speak and I agree with you. I'm just an ardent realist with wistful utopian visions... :blink:

 

[cyclic monkey]

Hey Sticky, you put up a pretty good fight for awhile there defending our Forces, but I think the photo shows that the cards might be stacked against you.

(Maybe you could build them a cedar-strip kayak ??)

 

[Sticky]

(Maybe you could build them a cedar-strip kayak ??)

Have you been peeking into the "Sticky Skunkworks"? That project was TS :angry: .

Hmmm, first I'd have to convince the local MP that it would benefit him and improve his chances for future re-election, then I'd need to create the potential for million$ in economic spinoffs (including a large Quebecois element even though I live in BC), and finally, successfully thwart the PWGSC procurement process and get them to buy it. Hey, ya know, with a little perseverence it could work... 😉

 

[cap]

CM -------Sticky and his past peers need no defense by him or anyone else....their record of trying to work with "crap" and still produce something is there on the records.

As an example, your picture is probably one that past Minister of National Defense, Donald McCallum (Chartered Accountant), would have given serious consideration to. Then, if purchased, he'd have made a big announcement to the stupid public to loud applause and given it to Sticky and his past peers to try to operate, but without any spares included. Then they'd have to 'cannalbilize' another operational "Frigate" to keep the others running because they don't have any money either to buy those parts they don't have. Reference: 6 months after the Auroras were puchased. Sticky.......would you care to "critique" the above for acurracy? 😀

 

[Sticky]

Sorry Cap, I was still in high school six months after the Aurora came into service... :unsure:

Not to belabour this thread...part of the equipment problem is the requirement to "water down" the package in order to make funding appear more appealing...such as buying the Griffon airframe as a standalone with the expectations that future monies will be made available to equip it with decent electro-optics or a proper weapons system - the really expensive bits that would probably cause a procurement programme to be denied funding (ala the EH101 - dubbed the Cadillac). In the meantime the guys try to make the machine work despite these gaps in capability (much to the chagrin of the Army unfortunately). Spares are also very expensive in relation to the entire package and are a potentially lucrative target...for instance the Griffon relies largely on the Bell Co-op system.

For what its worth, I would rather have an MND that wasn't necessarily ex-CF. I'd rather he be politically savvy so that they could move things efficiently through parliament AND be willing to listen to and appreciate what the CDS tries to tell him.