Southwest's Plans

[USlurker]

I've been reluctant to comment on threads like this, but as a investor in SouthWest for six years (I don't like to fly on them, but I think they are an amazingly well-run company) I am well-informed on some of these questions.

Seniority as a cost factor. I believe that the poster who posted a common-sense explanation for the difference is right. Detailed information is not public, but there are many people who have commented on it generally. For instance, the Washington Post on 2.29.04 reported that legacy airline seniority is between 10 and 20 years and low-cost seniority is between 3-10. The article is still on-line here.

Stock Options as compensation. SouthWest has a very well-run airline that rewards those who own stock. This allows them to provide stock options in lieu of cash to employees. It doesn't cost them very much and it pays the employees well. The pilots there agreed to a five year wage freeze in exchange for some fat options. Pilots earning 125,000 can be realizing 600,000 in options at virtually no cost to the company (there is a cost, but it is too complex for this posting). No one at US will be motivated by stock options.

Productivity. Southwest pilots are represented by an independant union and therefore have different work rules. Their pilots averaged 69 hours of actual flying time per month in 2001 (the latest figures I have). I'd guess US pilots probably average 40 at best.

What I have come to think is most important after reading this board for months, is that the overall tone of their labor relations is entirely different. The sort of mutual assured destruction preached by many here, while understandable, is likely to be fatal. The San Francisco Chronicle said it best on 8.13.03 (which Southwest printed in their annual report): "“Let’s see...Southwest pays Employees well and makes it clear through actions rather than ‘managementspeak’ that it appreciates and trusts its workers. And the company succeeds where others fail. What a shock."

Back to lurking. I really do love you guys and hope it comes together somehow.

 

[NeedForSpeedNFS]

Have you ever watch "Airline" on A@E on Monday nights. I have rarely seen anyone reprenting Southwest under the age of 35. They have tons of people working there in the "Senior Department". SW has been around for over 30 years.
If I started day one at SW at the age of 21 that would make me 51 years of age right now. This myth that SW has many junior people to U in my mind is just that.....a MYTH and a SPIN. :down:

KT,
Not so sure about that. Think about it...yea, SW has been around for 30some years. But, during the good times when all the majors were flying high,SW was the ONLY lcc around, and they were "out west", the bus company of the airline industry. But towards the end of the 90's, and especially after 9/11, taking advantage of the majors falling, they exploded in growth(from late90's-present) Sure they have some senior people, but it would seem very plausable to me that they have MANY junior people due to their fairly recent, huge growth. I dont have the actual stats,just an observation.

 

[funguy2]

NFS and US Lurker... I appreciate the support and the additional observations. However, your logical statements will not fly here, even though your statements are obvious to anyone who thinks rationally about the question.

Here is a little true story. I talked to a US Airways station manager prior to 9/11. I asked what was the likelihood of being hired to work at US Airways in my town (not a hub, but had a sizeable US Airways presence with flights to the hubs, DCA, and LGA). His response, "We have not hired anyone here from outside the company since 1989." Doesn't sound like a company that is doing any large scale hiring to me. Then you add furloughs on top of statements like this, and the logic I have presented... And I don't know how you come to any other conclusion.

But hey, that's just me...

 

[700UW]

The pictorial of you in the hourglass shows a typical union employee. A man on the ground, giving up, with a mustache. A typical "giver-uper." My personal opinion is that you are a loser.

detach your lips from dave's gludius maximus.

And you know what they say about opinions!

 

[wnbubbleboy]

KT,
Not so sure about that. Think about it...yea, SW has been around for 30some years. But, during the good times when all the majors were flying high,SW was the ONLY lcc around, and they were "out west", the bus company of the airline industry. But towards the end of the 90's, and especially after 9/11, taking advantage of the majors falling, they exploded in growth(from late90's-present) Sure they have some senior people, but it would seem very plausable to me that they have MANY junior people due to their fairly recent, huge growth. I dont have the actual stats,just an observation.

I've got 10 years here. After working in DAL for a while, 10years here still makes you a young one in respect to actual company seniority. The big spurt in growth that I can remember though is when we merged with Morris in '94. Also with the growth come jobs in other categories so even if they start on the ramp or in operations not everyone stays on the ramp or operations their entire time here.

I have been here in BWI for the last couple of years. In MX we have about 65 mechanics now with many rounding the 5 year mark. Which is top out for MX techs here at WN.

 

[El Gato]

The ONLY reason SWA has junior employees is due to expansion.

Not entirely just that.

You guys are all forgetting something worthwhile here. I challenge any of you to goto a city in which US operates, and WN operates, and goto the ticket counters. Compare the apperances of the two, and this is what you will find:

Southwest - young, averages in their thirties and forties at oldest....quite a few twenties as well.

US Airways - My god, you can almost smell the embalming fluid!

Check out the rampers there and at US. Southwest doesn't seem to have any grandpas and geezers working the bags, but US Airways sure as heck does!

Now why is this?

For one thing, Southwest has few groups that actually allow and foster seniority in age or number of years worked. In management and certain other parts you will find them, but out on the front lines, it is a young man's world. Guess what wage those younger people are getting. And how many years it takes to actually "top out". They leave the job or move up to something else LONG before they become a financial drag on the company. No one expects to work ramp or the counter forever at WN. Only an idiot would even think of doing such a thing. Goto US Airways Philly counter, and ask some of the folks there how long they have been there.....it's a real hoot! You have got to question the intelligence of someone who works a low wage job for more than a quarter of their life, but you have REALLY got to question a worker who uses his union to get a high wage for the job as well, thus enticing himself to stay even longer! And you have to wonder about any management team that allows someone to get away with that.

But that's what US Airways has. High wages for low wage value jobs. Employees who never left and did something better in life simply because they saw no need for it. And a management that let them get away with it, maybe even GAVE it to them all! Southwest has avoided this for 30 years(as Jetblue will too), by keeping wages low and offerring employees a reason to move out or up.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Wow, HARSH.... but, well..... true.

 

[El Gato]

Wow, HARSH.... but, well..... true.

The truth can burn like a hot blade sometimes. Even I hate to look it in the face sometimes, but you just have to.

 

[autofixer]

It really is like this entire board....blah, blah. Get a life or get on with life.

 

[resqicunurse]

Hello all...I know many folks here are employees of one airline or another, but I am a customer. I hate to see what is happening at US Airways...I chose them for convenience & proximity to my home in Vermont several years ago and have stayed a Silver member for the past 4 years. I would hate to see Southwest ruin US Airways at PHL...it's true that their costs are lower, but I have flown them once & that was enough for me. I will pay extra to fly US Airways and frequently do - I have met so many interesting folks (staff & flyers alike) in my travels that it's worth it to me. On SW it was like herded cattle from minute one & I did not find the onboard jokes amusing enough to keep flying them.

I hope management & labor will reach some kind of terms that keeps the airline running & me a loyal flyer....best of luck to you all!

 

[Hope777]

El Gato did touch on one very good point. There is NO incentive for the Front Line Employees to move up in this Company.

 

[ktflyhome]

As a Reserve F/A with the new "Time Balancing" Crap, there is NO incentive for us to work period. Since Nov. (with the exception of Dec. ...I did break guarantee by 30 minutes), I have not flown over 50 hours. Usually, it has been around 40 hours flight time. It is pathetic. For some, those who are only here for the benefits and/or have children at home and an extra income, it might be alright. But for those who are self-supportive and the primary income earner supporting a family, it is killing us. :down:

 

[F/AinDay]

As a Reserve F/A with the new "Time Balancing" Crap, there is NO incentive for us to work period. Since Nov. (with the exception of Dec. ...I did break guarantee by 30 minutes), I have not flown over 50 hours. Usually, it has been around 40 hours flight time. It is pathetic. For some, those who are only here for the benefits and/or have children at home and an extra income, it might be alright. But for those who are self-supportive and the primary income earner supporting a family, it is killing us. :down:

You're absolutely correct Kt...It's like being a new hire all over again, working for the per diem only :down:

 

[ktflyhome]

Not only does it feel like a New Hire again, we are strapped, frozen, unable to move from where we sit, being that is in your home or a hotel or commuter pad. You NEVER know what is going to happen. When one lives in "fear" of stepping outside the door, just to run to the store, ya know it's bad. And there is virtually no way of figuring it out how Schedulars are calling. I have enough Seniority that I would think "Quick Call's" won't hit me, since SUPPOSEDLY they go in inverse seniority issue. Yea, Right!!!! I know way too many Senior Reserves who have been quick called at the weirdest times. I do believe most at this point are just biding their time. Wait and see. Wait and see. Wait and see. :down:

 

[Light Years]

El Gato,

No offense, but you need to re-read that book about dealing with labour. The chapter about trying to demoralize the workforce, make them feel thier jobs and therefore thier lives are worth little? It only works if you do it subliminally. Coming on a website with your Simpsons picture and screeching like a girl on a playground isnt working. Sticks and stones, remember?