Star-Telegram: Delta'S Vote Against Unionizing Should Make American Airlines Stop And Think

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
when AA or any other airline does contract work for another airline, they separate out the costs of providing that revenue from what is used to provide AMR's own maintenance services.

Show me where you see it seperated out. You would think that but they dont. I sat at corporate headquarters and was told that by management. They said they dont even know if 3P is profitable.

The sad fact is that 3P was always set up as "busy work", something to fill the "white spaces". As a result they never set the process up right. When we do North American B checks in NY they have to work it in around our stuff.

Eoleson So who is slurping at the pension trough that I missed?

EO, its common and you know it. Everyone on your list is still working. Obviously, while they are still working, they wont be "slurping at the pension trough". As Hopefull pointed out Carty was credited for more years in the pension than he actually had with the company.

 

[eolesen]

The house is on fire, and you're arguing about what color the wallpaper in the bathroom was back in 2003...

EO, its common and you know it. Everyone on your list is still working. Obviously, while they are still working, they wont be "slurping at the pension trough". As Hopefull pointed out Carty was credited for more years in the pension than he actually had with the company.

No, Bob. It's not common, except perhaps as a breakroom myth used by local union officials to whip up the membership.

When your pension is based on the best of three or four in the ten years before your retirement, the added years of credit don't mean much, especially when Carty had been there for almost 20 real years (he was hired in either 1980 or 81, minus the two years he worked for CP). You also have to remember that Carty was only 57 when he was fired -- added years of service in his severance agreement were bridging what he would have otherwise received had he stayed the five remaining years for a full pension. That's the price you pay for calling for someone's head.

It's quite rare for someone to get years of credit unless they're being hired in at an age (or are heading into a high turnover position) where they probably won't vest in ten, and/or are forfeiting their retirement elsewhere. And AMR hasn't hired in anyone from another corporation in quite a while, nor have there been any executives retiring with less than 10 years of service...

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Agree with eolesen. The idea that employees at other (bankrupt) carriers have been made whole is a crock. Show me some evidence and I'll reconsider. But the savage cuts and pension loss imposed by the bankruptcy process continues to affect the lives of those at Delta, US Airways and United far more than the voluntary concessions among AA people.

 

[700UW]

Actually at US, the Mechanic and Related all ready have a post bankruptcy CBA which got the IAM Pension Plan and many other various improvements and are entering Section 6 Negotiations in January. Also Fleet Service has a post bankruptcy CBA.

Better go educate yourself.

 

[Hopeful]

And AMR hasn't hired in anyone from another corporation in quite a while, nor have there been any executives retiring with less than 10 years of service...

Really? How about the SR. VP of maintenance and Engineering?.............James Ream
How about VP of Base Maintenance..............................................William Collins

 

[Bob Owens]

The house is on fire, and you're arguing about what color the wallpaper in the bathroom was back in 2003...



No, Bob. It's not common, except perhaps as a breakroom myth used by local union officials to whip up the membership.

When your pension is based on the best of three or four in the ten years before your retirement, the added years of credit don't mean much, especially when Carty had been there for almost 20 real years (he was hired in either 1980 or 81, minus the two years he worked for CP). You also have to remember that Carty was only 57 when he was fired -- added years of service in his severance agreement were bridging what he would have otherwise received had he stayed the five remaining years for a full pension. That's the price you pay for calling for someone's head.

It's quite rare for someone to get years of credit unless they're being hired in at an age (or are heading into a high turnover position) where they probably won't vest in ten, and/or are forfeiting their retirement elsewhere. And AMR hasn't hired in anyone from another corporation in quite a while, nor have there been any executives retiring with less than 10 years of service...

Every year makes a difference with the pension, thats why AA has always cheated us out of the first year because it saves them a ton of money, the formula doesnt change, the reason why those last few years add up to so much is because the numbers get bigger, so adding a few years of service, whether you add it to the beginning or the end has the same result.

Once again you make claims and contradict yourself, on the one hand you say they dont get years added, or that its not common, then you explain why they get years added. If a regular worker gets fired for dishonesty, which is why the unions demanded Carty's head, do they get years added to their pension? When the company hires workers who wont be here long enough to get vested do they get years added to their pension? NO. But how much you want to bet that Jim Ream ends up with a bigger pension than I ?

 

[737823]

If a regular worker gets fired for dishonesty, which is why the unions demanded Carty's head, do they get years added to their pension?

A regular worker likely wouldn't get fired since firing a union employee is nearly impossible. Could APFA/APA/TWU file a grievance to protect the subject employee?

Josh

 

[OgieJFK]

A regular worker likely wouldn't get fired since firing a union employee is nearly impossible. Could APFA/APA/TWU file a grievance to protect the subject employee?

Josh

Really? I can't speak for other stations but management is on a write up or fire spree at JFK. AA's policy seems to be that they fire people and let the judge decide if they come back...or they offer the person they're job back after 6 months without back pay.

Given that all of the senior management team except maybe two or three have over 20 years,

Off topic...I find this funny cause my boss that runs JFK Freight cAArgo loves to say to his employees openly that having under 30 years in AA means ####( insert other word for crap).

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip
If a regular worker gets fired for dishonesty, which is why the unions demanded Carty's head, do they get years added to their pension? When the company hires workers who wont be here long enough to get vested do they get years added to their pension?
... snip

Carty fired? Please. Another myth perpetuated by the company and TWU.

No CEO runs around establishing $46 million dollar management slush funds unless the BOD approves and directs it be done. Carty wanted to leave anyway and leaving with the appearance of having fallen on his sword cleared the way for the new accountant-type boys to take over at the Board's behest and created a false sense of well-being in the troops after old Don "took one for the team".

The "Carty getting fired" fairy tale is nearly as good as the story about the "lawyers were on the courthouse steps when the call went through ..." - that lie beats all I EVER stepped in.

Someone should write a book or make a movie - one might even get an Oscar for "best drama".

 

[Mr Red]

Carty laughed all the way to the bank!!!!

 

[Hopeful]

Carty laughed all the way to the bank!!!!

This is an article about Executive perks. Read down to the Carty paragraph.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D03E5D9143DF934A25751C1A9649C8B63

Mr. Carty of American Airlines received one and a half years of pension credit for each year of work until 2000, when he traded a raise for two years of credit for each year on the job.

 

[FWAAA]

Yes, Carty received more years of service credit than one per year worked. And AA has hired some others who may have received more additonal years of service credit. But that doesn't support Bob's earlier nonsensical assertion that most of AA's pension contributions were for the executives and the pilots. $2.7 billion contributed to the pensions in the most recent 10 years and the executives accounted for an insignificant portion of that total.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, Carty received more years of service credit than one per year worked. And AA has hired some others who may have received more additonal years of service credit. But that doesn't support Bob's earlier nonsensical assertion that most of AA's pension contributions were for the executives and the pilots. $2.7 billion contributed to the pensions in the most recent 10 years and the executives accounted for an insignificant portion of that total.

PILOTS PENSIONS..................Now there's a topic!

 

[WorldTraveler]

You've made this statement twice now. I hate to call your bluff, but the profit sharing info I've been reading doesn't come anywhere near restoring salary to pre-filing levels. Who has been made whole, WT?

First,
I didn't use the word "made whole" - you did. Made whole to me means recouping all of the cuts that were imposed - and no airline employee has done that.

However, I did say that some airline employees have come close to or have restored their salaries to pre-BK levels.

Let me cite DL since I have the most data on that airline. There were many DL emploiyees who received lump sum and stock payouts within the first month or two of exiting bankrutpcy that exceeded the cash reductions in salary they incurred during BK. Part of those payouts was compensation for the loss of pension benefits during BK - most airlines did not fund their pension plans during BK and the employees became creditors whic his why they received stock. Most employees - just like in America as a whole - sold the stock and spent it and the lump sum payouts; thus it is hard to argue that about how difficult the pension benefit cuts were. Thus, the cash spent essentially became extra income (that's the way IRS treated it unless it was rolled into an IRA or other pension plan)
But DL employees have received and/or will receive in the near future (pending conclusion of the representation process) fairly significant pay raises. The pilots received very substantial pay increases because they agreed to "play nice" and make the merger work, agreeing to a joint contract before the merger closed. And the pilots have played "very nice"... DL pilot insiders can add their two cents but the rancor that is usually part of a merger process - and why so many airlines fear mergers - has been absent. IN fact, from a labor standpoint as it affected the operation, DL's merger has been unusually smooth aside from the representation process. And DL gave its non-contract employees pay raises a couple weeks ago and is going to spread them to PMNW employees as soon as the representation process is resolved.... now this is key. most DL employee groups took pay cuts of 15-20%. The wage increases are in the area of 9-10%. DL has stated multiple times that it expects to pay significant amounts of profit sharing and based on the amounts that have been recorded so far this year, profit sharing could amount to more than 10% of the salary - which would mean that many of those employees have indeed returned to pay levels higher than what they had before.
And the DL pilot group so far as I can tell based on public information are now the highest paid US network airline pilots. While these levels may not be as high as the last pre-9/11 contract (not sure of the amounts), these levels are sustainable and the company has added increases unlike the pre-9/11 contract which was pattern bargaining driven by UA's pilots who forced the company to write a check they could not afford... and again, which AA did not write and which probably helped save AA from having to file for BK.

How much UA has to shell out for labor peace remains to be seen... but at least for DL employees, many have come very close to regaining their salary levels pre-BK - and their company is growing - which is ALWAYS good news for airline employees.

Which brings me to the final point... some of you argue that AA employees have fared better than their network peers who filed for BK - but how many AMR employees are still on furlough? Data I see shows that more than 1500 AA pilots are still on furlough - if that data is current. When the point of a union is to argue for the benefits of all employees in that group, you cannot say that the group as a whole is doing better than airlines like CO, DL, and US east which have either completed furloughs or will in the near future. When you factor in the furloughed employees and their lack of a salary, then you cannot argue that AA employees are doing better when 10% or more of the workforce is on furlough compared to other airlines which are now hiring off the street. And of course those airlines that are hiring off the street are also able to promote their employees further through the company as the company grows.

While some may not like hearing the example of DL, the simple fact is that they executed the fastest and most successful bankruptcy in the history of the airline industry and they returned the company to a profitable growth mode which has helped employees.
Bankruptcy is never an easy process but if it has to be done, it should be done quickly and effectively. A large part of AMR's problem is that they have not finished the process which was started seven years ago while AA's competitors have resolved their restructuring processes and have moved on.

It is precisely because both AMR and its employees continue to believe they are better off than their competitors that they have not resolved their restructuring - which only allows competitors to continue to move ahead, including moving into markets which AA once dominated.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes, Carty received more years of service credit than one per year worked. And AA has hired some others who may have received more additonal years of service credit. But that doesn't support Bob's earlier nonsensical assertion that most of AA's pension contributions were for the executives and the pilots. $2.7 billion contributed to the pensions in the most recent 10 years and the executives accounted for an insignificant portion of that total.

Ok, management, why would you say its nonsensical that most of the money to the Pension fund goes to those two groups? I've told you what the company says they put in for me, and I'm considered above average base pay for airline workers. The pilots have to have an expensive plan because the law mandates a shortened career. Executives, like mechanics, can work till they die of old age but they get years added that they never worked. Judging by what they put infor me somebody must be getting a lot more to come up to the average. I doubt its people who get paid a lot less.

2.7 billion over the last ten years you say, ok, that comes out to 270 million a year, didvide that by 100,000 and it comes out to $2700 per employee(ten years ago we has 120,000 employees, now 80,000), now, what does that come out to as far as a percentage of total wages paid? Lets say on average over the last 10 years its $7.5 billion, so $75 billion in wages and 2.7 billion to the pension, so around 3.6%. If we had the same pension plan as SWA the figure would have been around roughly $6 billion. I'd say AA is getting a good deal with the pension, they are paying half of what SWA pays.