Ted In The Post-atsb World

[gimbalimit]

TED....big distraction.....low cost unit within a larger carrier has never worked.....how do they allocate fixed costs.....etc, etc, etc....thoughts indicative of a lack of imagination which staggers......While at first skeptical about the TED idea I believe some posters here are right to assert that it is not about a whole new and separate airline - it is about fare structure, S-curve advantage, LOW (much lower) overall cost structure at UAL as a whole, higher productivity, more seats to sell per jet, and viola, we may have a winning idea - it is NOT a distraction, as one can see, there is very little effort required to implement the idea. TED is almost transparent to employees - nothing much different to do - and it is almost transparent to the pax, EXCEPT, the fare structure is reliably competitive with the other low cost guys and lets face it, most people like to accrue UAL miles and they like the option of using those miles for a week in Amsterdam or on the beach in Maui.

The ATSB mandarins have finally ended their sham of a Kabuki dance and this will make it much tougher to attract financing...yes. Glenn and company will need to cut deeper (I work here too and I don't much relish this idea either) but if it gets done without sacrificing the jewels then I think UAL has a very good shot at leveraging it's still UNPARALLELED route network, state of the art fleet, and outstanding employee talent into a success story that will serve up a whole feast of crow parts to those perky low cost guys and vacuous and useless industry pundits who routinely open their mouths before engaging brain or confusing themselves with pesky facts ( I mean it, there are some real idiots out there who are given a big microphone).

And while I'm on a roll here, where is the outrage from the likes of the wall st. journal editorial page when a couple of mokes at the top of a corporation engage in self-dealing to fatten their "pension plans" by gladhanding each other severance packages and hidden cash transnsfers in amounts magnitudes beyond the wildest dreams of mere mortal schleps like most who earn a wage? I guess the answer is that its just business as usual.......ah, well, nobody said life was fair.

 

[gatemech]

UAL mechanics make less than SWA mechanics. I would say $4 to $5 per hour less. I could be wrong on that figure.

 

[jbguppy]

Sometimes the truth hurts!!!


Ted meeting targets, gaining market share
Dateline: Friday July 02, 2004

Although it has been in the air for only a few months, Ted already is having an impact on the marketplace, according to United Airlines.

In the low-fare carrier's first three months of operations from Denver, it has gained roughly 10 points in market share from key competitors, moving from 41.5% to 51.6%. Since launching operations from Washington Dulles in April, Ted has increased its market share in its markets by 17 points from 29.3% to 46.1%.
"While we continue to be impressed by the terrific operational results that employees are delivering to customers flying on Ted, the competitive impact Ted is having on the marketplace is significant…As we gain market share we are also improving the financial performance in these markets and exceeding our financial targets," Ted VP Sean Donohue said in a message to United employees.--LF



JB Guppy

 

[GuppyPup]

UAL mechanics make less than SWA mechanics. I would say $4 to $5 per hour less. I could be wrong on that figure.

How many mechanics does SWA have? I don't think pay is the issue with SWA, it's that they do more work with less people, for more money? It's probably true, from the top, all the way down the food chain there.

 

[Borescope]

Sometimes the Truth Hurts!!!!!!

Although it has been in the air for only a few months, Ted already is having an impact on the marketplace, according to United Airlines.

It does hurt, The last for words say it all. How much can you believe??????? :down:

 

[46Driver]

it's still UNPARALLELED route network, state of the art fleet, and outstanding employee talent into a success story that will serve up a whole feast of crow parts to those perky low cost guys and vacuous and useless industry pundits who routinely open their mouths before engaging brain or confusing themselves with pesky facts ( I mean it, there are some real idiots out there who are given a big microphone).

Unparalleled route network? Sorry, I live in the South and United doesnt have a big presence. Its always Delta, or Delta, or Delta, although there are some American and Continental flights as well.

State of the art fleet? When UAL can match JetBlue with satellite TV on all flights, get back to me.

 

[boeing787]

Yeah your right 46 driver but been out west it's United United United...Pacific it's United United United...Midwest it's United United United...get my point.

No OUR Routes aren't for sale...truly an unparalled network.

 

[gimbalimit]

Unparalleled route network? Sorry, I live in the South and United doesnt have a big presence. Its always Delta, or Delta, or Delta, although there are some American and Continental flights as well.

State of the art fleet? When UAL can match JetBlue with satellite TV on all flights, get back to me.

What's a 46, eh driver? (BAE 146, C-46, 46 chevy, just curious). Don't be sorry, be proud of your regional awareness!! So you live in the south and it's delta, delta - as I recall there is also air tran, usairways, swa, and a host of other airlines down there and since when does a strong presence by another airline in the south relate to my assertion that UAL has an unparalleled route network? Hot tip, the south is just another region of the country and it is a BIG country. Hey, last I checked it is a big world and the south is just an itty bitty region on that scale. I won't bore you with facts but UAL is rivaled only by NWA in asia, and is the number 2 or 3 player in other international markets. Domestically, strong hubs but I will conceded that none are really of the fortress variety as UAL must compete vigorously out of every major hub (unlike Delta in ATL or AA in Dallas, or NWA in DET) with the exception of DEN and that is a relatively minor O and D market so doesn't count.

As for technology, I agree, the satellite TV idea is a nice little perk back in coach, so I'll give you that one. I'm talking about flight operations technology and fleet age. In this category, UAL is on a par with any other airline in the world, period. Could it use improvement, sure; working on the computer flight bag, upgrading FMCs in the 767 fleet to the pegasus standard, etc, etc. Not sure you're following me anymore but UAL has contributed immensely to air safety through research, experiment, and study which goes well beyond the visibility of the average passengger as he tunes in his sattelite TV in 23B (BTW, I'll bet it shows up if UAL exits CH 11 in one piece). Anyhow, if your measure of technological prowess in an airplane begins and ends with the passenger entertainment, I'm not terribly interested in further discussion.

Cheers, Gimbalimit (AKA F15/737/757/767 driver)

 

[WorldTraveler]

Subsidiaries in any industry are inherently shifting for cost-shifting. It simply is not possible to say that Ted can be profitable when mainline United is losing SO much money. The operation is just not that different even given the extra seats (which also requires 1 more f/a) etc. Further, all of those leisure flights will be pretty empty in about 65 days - and it will last for months with the exception of a couple holidays.

It is also incorrect to say that United has not had a presence among leisure passengers. For years, United has been the dominant airline to Hawaii and California. Hawaii is nearly all leisure and California is for many people, as is Colorado.

It doesn't really matter whether Ted makes money or not as long as it is part of United Airlines. And the way Ted is set up, it cannot be neatly extricated from the rest of United.

 

[ual06]

I just do not understand this stuff about TV on board. Never owned a TV until my wife
brought one into the house. Now, I watch about an hour a day of NEWS via the networks.

It is much more relaxing to listen to music on the radio or read a book.

Yea, the radio is on - TV is OFF.

 

[The Ronin]

I have flown on Jetblue and it rocked. It was clean, comfortable and Direct TV is cool. In comparison, TED sucks. If offers nothing, isn't comfortable and the crew were about as "new" and "hip" as a Studebaker. If they are running high load factors it's because of price. If yield and costs have moved lower proportionately, then where is the advantage? Costs must be lower than yield to obtain any profit margin and those margins must be great enough to run the operation to be successful long term. And once again, even IF the operation is successful which I doubt, it will then be hobbled by the drag of its mainline operation. Then what do you do? I sense alot of back patting by way too many VP's and their consortium of management underlings, and flight crews that don't give a rats ass because at least they are flying one more day. :blink:

 

[46Driver]

Unparalleled route network? Sorry, I live in the South and United doesnt have a big presence. Its always Delta, or Delta, or Delta, although there are some American and Continental flights as well.

State of the art fleet? When UAL can match JetBlue with satellite TV on all flights, get back to me.

What's a 46, eh driver? (BAE 146, C-46, 46 chevy, just curious). Don't be sorry, be proud of your regional awareness!! So you live in the south and it's delta, delta - as I recall there is also air tran, usairways, swa, and a host of other airlines down there and since when does a strong presence by another airline in the south relate to my assertion that UAL has an unparalleled route network? Hot tip, the south is just another region of the country and it is a BIG country. Hey, last I checked it is a big world and the south is just an itty bitty region on that scale. I won't bore you with facts but UAL is rivaled only by NWA in asia, and is the number 2 or 3 player in other international markets. Domestically, strong hubs but I will conceded that none are really of the fortress variety as UAL must compete vigorously out of every major hub (unlike Delta in ATL or AA in Dallas, or NWA in DET) with the exception of DEN and that is a relatively minor O and D market so doesn't count.

As for technology, I agree, the satellite TV idea is a nice little perk back in coach, so I'll give you that one. I'm talking about flight operations technology and fleet age. In this category, UAL is on a par with any other airline in the world, period. Could it use improvement, sure; working on the computer flight bag, upgrading FMCs in the 767 fleet to the pegasus standard, etc, etc. Not sure you're following me anymore but UAL has contributed immensely to air safety through research, experiment, and study which goes well beyond the visibility of the average passengger as he tunes in his sattelite TV in 23B (BTW, I'll bet it shows up if UAL exits CH 11 in one piece). Anyhow, if your measure of technological prowess in an airplane begins and ends with the passenger entertainment, I'm not terribly interested in further discussion.

Cheers, Gimbalimit (AKA F15/737/757/767 driver)

46? That's the Boeing CH-46E - the Marine Corps primary Assault Helicopter. (to all of you Air Force types, its one of the big ones with tandem rotors so don't shoot)

For where I live and where I go, Delta has the best network (i.e., the South, the Northeast, and Europe - however, I have taken UAL to Australia several times and to Auckland once before it was discontinued.) Speaking of Delta, are you saying Delta does NOT have to compete with AirTran out of Atlanta????

Always thought American had the best worldwide network but if you say UAL has it, that's fine. Whatever.

As for technology, I was speaking from the customer's perspective. New, clean airplanes with Direct TV and leather seats - in coach - are sweet. But then again, the tone that you give implies that you don't care about the customer - and it shows in your bottom line.

The airplanes technology? Well the Dornier 328 has a nice little Honeywell Primus 2000 which I found to be quite good. I am certain the Airbus will be pleasantly equipped as well when I get back from military duty and rejoin Independence Air.

Semper Fidelis, 46Driver (AKA 57Driver, 328 Driver)

 

[C54Capt]

As for technology, I was speaking from the customer's perspective. New, clean airplanes with Direct TV and leather seats - in coach - are sweet. But then again, the tone that you give implies that you don't care about the customer - and it shows in your bottom line.

The airplanes technology? Well the Dornier 328 has a nice little Honeywell Primus 2000 which I found to be quite good. I am certain the Airbus will be pleasantly equipped as well when I get back from military duty and rejoin Independence Air.

Semper Fidelis, 46Driver (AKA 57Driver, 328 Driver)

46Driver,
You are absolutely correct about the aircraft cabin amenities being the only technology that the customers care about. The high-speed equipment up front only impresses ourselves.

You will love the Airbus. Your 328 experience will bode well from a technology standpoint in transitioning to the 319. I have flown most Boeing and MD products and can honestly say that I prefer the Airbus, although the 777 may have changed my mind, had I had the opportunity to fly it. Semper Fi.

gimbalimit,
Although I respect your "F-15 Driver" status, keep in mind that your "Boeing-7XX Driver" status will only impress your mother. Don't tie your worth too closely to the machines you operate. Unfortunately technology has, to a large degree, mitigated our (airline pilots) elite status in the eyes of the masses.

 

[46Driver]

C54,
Thanks for the comparison. Semper Fi!

And to Gimbalimit,
I left out my favorite: 4430Driver - nothing like the roar of a John Deere turbo diesel and shifting through the 16 gears in the Quad Range Tranny....

 

[gimbalimit]

[/QUOTE]46? That's the Boeing CH-46E - the Marine Corps primary Assault Helicopter. (to all of you Air Force types, its one of the big ones with tandem rotors so don't shoot)

For where I live and where I go, Delta has the best network (i.e., the South, the Northeast, and Europe - however, I have taken UAL to Australia several times and to Auckland once before it was discontinued.) Speaking of Delta, are you saying Delta does NOT have to compete with AirTran out of Atlanta????

Always thought American had the best worldwide network but if you say UAL has it, that's fine. Whatever.

As for technology, I was speaking from the customer's perspective. New, clean airplanes with Direct TV and leather seats - in coach - are sweet. But then again, the tone that you give implies that you don't care about the customer - and it shows in your bottom line.

The airplanes technology? Well the Dornier 328 has a nice little Honeywell Primus 2000 which I found to be quite good. I am certain the Airbus will be pleasantly equipped as well when I get back from military duty and rejoin Independence Air.

Semper Fidelis, 46Driver (AKA 57Driver, 328 Driver)

46 and 54 driver, I am duly chastened, and I might add that my responses to you and to others are posted without any real knowledge as to who you are and what you do so if I offend I apologize, but I did get you to respond and thanks for that. (can't believe I didn't think of the frog as well...always wondered how that thing actually flew). There is no way to convey the full measure of what I care or don't care about. I long ago gave up on impressing anybody with the airplanes I fly/flew, seriously. And, I agree, the passenger is what counts in this business; in fact , I can't think of a time when I flew for a wage (mil/civ) when the sole puirpose was just to fly. Many in our profession seem to think of themselves as prima donnas and believe that serving the customer is beneath them - egotistical jerks. My reference to flight ops technology stems from my experience at 3 other airlines. From where I sit, my current (and I stress current) employer is committed to finding new and innovative solutions in flight ops technology (and this did not exist at the other airlines I've worked for) - and for this there is no near term return to the bottom line. These inniatives will payoff in the long term and many other carriers simply do not invest such time and money (different story in ch11) but will piggy back. I would wager the same is true at the other major carriers but, I would assert, such is not the case at the low cost level. Perhaps the new paradigm will render investment in such projects by airlines undoable.

You're right, we could argue all day about the merits of route networks among the major carriers, but it is a constantly shifting equation and will yield no real consensus, so we can just leave it at that (but I gotta say, asia, and china in particular, is probably the biggest source of revenue growth in the world today and UAL is in position and ready to reap - if the routes aren't sold off.....)

Until the reality of ch11, UAL took the customer for granted (oligopoly is a wonderful thing.....). There seems to be a new awareness (duh!!!) and I welcome this.

54 driver - I don't care what airplane I fly or who makes it, really; airbus, dornier, lockheed, boeing, whatever........and if UAL doesn't exit ch11 intact I'll be looking for another job (tired of starting over though). For now, I'm on this team so I'll do my best to advocate for success. I'm sure you will do the same.

Cheers, Gimbalimit