Thb Wearing 2 Hats

[Ken MacTiernan]

And Bob, your information about FA Certification is not correct:

[post="280918"][/post]​

700, I have heard about the F/As wanting to get certified for a long time and I feel they should be certificated by the FAA. Just like the pilots and AMTs.

I am curious, is the certification issued by the FAA or just each respective airline? Are these two seperate issues? If the FAA does issue one what are the rquirements?

I wish all F/As the best.

 

[FA Mikey]

Certification is based on the Approved FAA training.

 

[jimntx]

700, I have heard about the F/As wanting to get certified for a long time and I feel they should be certificated by the FAA. Just like the pilots and AMTs.

I am curious, is the certification issued by the FAA or just each respective airline? Are these two seperate issues? If the FAA does issue one what are the rquirements?

I wish all F/As the best.

[post="280923"][/post]​

People, we are talking about 3 different things here.

1. The certification that FA Mikey is referring to is the fact that the FAA certifies that the F/A Training Program at AA meets FAA standards.

2. The FAA certification that is lacking, but that we all have wanted is an individual certification of a F/A as a trained professional and is certified to work on certain a/c--just as pilots are certified as qualified to fly a 777, or 757, or S80.

3. The certification that was mentioned that made reference to CO flight attendants is a certification that we all have to carry now, but has nothing to do with qualifications. It is a certification of our 10-year background check. It's a security thang!

You're welcome. Have a nice day.

 

[700UW]

No it does not have to do with the ten year background check:

Flight Attendant Certification Victory!
The Flight Attendant Certification language contained in the recently passed FAA Reauthorization bill is a significant victory for us. Thanks to the hard work of AFA’s Government Affairs Department and the members of the Government Affairs committees at all AFA carriers, the U.S. Congress recognized Flight Attendants as trained safety professionals.

The Long Road to Victory
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) requires Flight Attendants on board commercial aircraft and establishes the basic training required of Flight Attendants. While pilots, flight engineers, navigators, dispatchers and air traffic controllers are certified, Flight Attendants, the on-board safety experts, are not certified. AFA believes it is time to certify Flight Attendants to ensure that we are properly trained and qualified. We believe that the lack of certification prevents Flight Attendants from being treated in the same manner as other aviation safety professionals.

Safety and security are our primary concerns. We do more than evacuate airplanes in emergency situations. We are the first line of defense dealing with hijackers, terrorists and abusive passengers. We are the fire department at 30,000 feet who must be able to detect and fight fires. We are the paramedics effectively handling in-flight medical emergencies ranging from heart attacks to turbulent related injuries. We assist passengers in aircraft decompressions and are the on-site bomb detection squad. In addition, we perform routine safety and service duties on board the aircraft.

Background
The FAA and Federal Aviation Regulations already require flight attendants to pass FAA-approved safety and security training programs and require flight attendants to be onboard all passenger aircraft with 20 or more seats. The FAA requires flight attendants to be trained in accordance with FAR’s that include passing FAA-approved training courses through a series of competency checks and tests, as well as passing mandatory re-current training every twelve months. Currently, the FAA certifies all other aviation workers who have demonstrated a stipulated level of knowledge and skills. Flight attendants deserve similar certification of their professional abilities. Flight attendant certification would be similar to certifying mechanics where no additional medical qualifications are required. Flight attendants play a key role in the security of passengers onboard commercial aircraft and are now the last line of defense to defend the cockpit, themselves and their passengers from lethal attacks by suicidal terrorists in the aircraft cabin. The FAA should ultimately attest to and ensure the qualifications of flight attendants through an official certification process, thereby restoring consumer confidence in air travel and improving the overall safety and security of our air transportation system.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, calling APFA, something like AAPFA is a joke and is as far from reality as you can get. Under the last administration. The one who refused to count all the votes and declare the rightful winner in the election. Negotiated behind closed doors and work hand in hand with DC at the time to ensure a yes vote on the concessions, at all costs.

This administration has been nothing but straight forward and open. Mailings to the members, complete up to date web site, and weekly hot line. The union magazine is also back and in details all the president has accomplished and what is on the agenda for the future.

APFA success is from representing only AA flight attendants. We are focused in that negotiations are to the issues of the AA flight attendants. Not those of UAL or anyone else. I don't see where that has helped or gained the mechanics position over the last 70 years, in either the TWU or AMFA. The ALSSA was union representing all the FA's for a time. That or even the AFA has not shown to be a benefit to the average FA. Independents like APFA and PFAA, are being detail oriented to your own members and issues.  We are focused on the issues that concern us here and not spending time and valuable resources dealing with what's going on at other smaller carriers, like AFA-CWA is.

Its a unique work environment, and different from carrier to carrier. As you saw recently NWA voted out of the teamsters and went independent. UAL is getting closer to doing the same.

All flight attendants are FAA certified now. It was a long road to get there and there is much still to do in regard to expanding the certification.

[post="280906"][/post]​

Well I think that your post reinforces my statement. AAPFA. Basically the arguements you use against joining with other FAs is very similar to the arguement that companies use to convince workers that they dont need a union. Your claim that smaller means better service without the "interference" of the concerns of other FAs sounds like the companies arguement that they are better off keeping outsiders(unions) from interfereing in their employer/employee relationship. The fact is that what happens to the FAs at UAL, USAIR, NWA etc WILL have a big impact on what happens to you, so the sooner you learn to work together the sooner you will all be better off.

The NWA FAs would have liked to join with the APFA in order to get out of the Teamsters. They even would have gone with the AFA but the AFA would not take them because of the AFL-CIO thing and the APFA only wanted to deal with AA, they told NWA they were not welcome. Since they were not welcome anywhere else that was exclusively a union for FAs they formed the PFAA.Thats what one of their organizers told me.

So tell me what makes being an FA for AA unique? Sure there may be some contractual differences but dont you face the same challenges and hazards at work? I've been a line mechanic for 25 years for at least six different companies, its the same job no matter what color they paint the tails. I feel that all of us should be in the same union, I cant see what the disadvantage would be for you guys either. The only ones that might see a disadvantage are the union leaders who may not have their position in a new more effecient, effective structure.

That said,(its time to suck up a little) the APFA has demonstrated a willingness to take on management. Your strike in the early 90s was managed brilliantly. They dont shy away from making their struggles with management public and to the point. I walked your lines, despite the fact that our International Air Transport Director Jim Little made a point of telling us that your struggle "was not our fight". We disagreed and had a good showing in NY supporting the APFA. Your pickets were vocal and informative and let the passengers know that you wanted a raise. Ours on the other hand were pitiful, the handouts looked as if the company wrote them and did nothing to inform the passngers as to why we were out there, that could be because Jim Little came from management and he controlled what was distributed.I think the only reason why he didnt order us not to participate in your pickets was because he knew we would have anyway. But, unless you guys start to realize that there is strength in numbers and unity your profession will continue to go backwards.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Okoge does not have a clue as to the good things THB has done. And I did not even vote for her.

 

[FA Mikey]

So tell me what makes being an FA for AA unique? Sure there may be some contractual differences but dont you face the same challenges and hazards at work? I've been a line mechanic for 25 years for at least six different companies, its the same job no matter what color they paint the tails. I feel that all of us should be in the same union, I cant see what the disadvantage would be for you guys either. The only ones that might see a disadvantage are the union leaders who may not have their position in a new more effecient, effective structure.

[post="280952"][/post]​

I mean to say what we desire is unique. All the carriers may be flying planes but the job is bit different at each airline. Our job is not 5 days a week, it is not 8 hours a day. So the variables on what a day, a week, a month can be scheduled for abound. An AA flight attendant will want things different from what a UAL attendant desires. Just as a senior desires different from a junior. Married vs. single and those with children vs. those without still more.

What we don't want is AA union dues fighting a battle with all the other carriers. Having a MEC president from another carrier over seeing our sub operation doesn't inspire confidence. AFA has helped out the smaller carriers. But the largest in the group know they are undeserved and want to strike out on there own.

I would be so pissed to be part of AFA and there CHAOS and there empty threats as of late. Its a joke and a half. Stand up for what you mean and mean what you say. So when you talk of a single union I look to the mess at AFA and say no thanks.

That said,(its time to suck up a little) the APFA has demonstrated a willingness to take on management. Your strike in the early 90s was managed brilliantly. They dont shy away from making their struggles with management public and to the point. I walked your lines, despite the fact that our International Air Transport Director Jim Little made a point of telling us that your struggle "was not our fight". We disagreed and had a good showing in NY supporting the APFA. Your pickets were vocal and informative and let the passengers know that you wanted a raise. Ours on the other hand were pitiful, the handouts looked as if the company wrote them and did nothing to inform the passngers as to why we were out there, that could be because Jim Little came from management and he controlled what was distributed.I think the only reason why he didnt order us not to participate in your pickets was because he knew we would have anyway. But, unless you guys start to realize that there is strength in numbers and unity your profession will continue to go backwards.

[post="280952"][/post]​

You guys were there in BIG way and I will never stop saying thanks, for that. Even in DFW we had a good TWU turn out. I think it was good that we did it alone, as far as walking out. It made our cause our own. It showed a work group composed of mainly woman could like manage on there own. It gave new strength to Nurses and textile workers to do the same.

Had the pilots and mechanic gone out, it would always be that the reason the company gave ground was due to them.

 

[Bob Owens]

FA Mikey,Jul 10 2005, 01:05 AM]
I mean to say what we desire is unique. All the carriers may be flying planes but the job is bit different at each airline.


OK, but I'll go out on a limb here and say that more than likely you have more in common with other FAs than not. In other words the jobs are more alike than different.

Our job is not 5 days a week, it is not 8 hours a day.

No, and the same would likely be true for FAs at most other carriers too wouldnt it?

So the variables on what a day, a week, a month can be scheduled for abound. An AA flight attendant will want things different from what a UAL attendant desires.

Such as?More money, better health benifits, a good pension?

Just as a senior desires different from a junior. Married vs. single and those with children vs. those without still more.

Sure, unity is always hard to maintain but I still do not see where AA is unique.

What we don't want is AA union dues fighting a battle with all the other carriers.

Why not? Then when you have to fight AA dues from them can help you. You can either have them fight over there and win, which in the long run helps you or let them lose and within a short period of time you will be stuck in the same fight with your employer. Surely you saw the connection between what happened at USAIR and UAL and what later happened to us in 2003? "Pattern bargaining" has always been a part of this industry. You see it may be illegal for corporations to work together to increase ticket prices but its not illegal for them to work together to lower wages.

Having a MEC president from another carrier over seeing our sub operation doesn't inspire confidence.

Who says you have to set it up like that? Besides AA is the largest carrier, more than likely the head of the union would come from the ranks of AA FAs.

AFA has helped out the smaller carriers. But the largest in the group know they are undeserved and want to strike out on there own.

I think they want to leave because they saw how utterly useless the AFA has become. One thing you must keep is membership elections of the top leadership.

I would be so pissed to be part of AFA and there CHAOS and there empty threats as of late. Its a joke and a half. Stand up for what you mean and mean what you say. So when you talk of a single union I look to the mess at AFA and say no thanks.

Yea but the FAs are not in a single union. Some are TWU, some are Teamsters, some IAM, some APFA, some PFAA and some AFA and still others non-union.

You guys were there in BIG way and I will never stop saying thanks, for that. Even in DFW we had a good TWU turn out. I think it was good that we did it alone, as far as walking out.

The leadership of the TWU was not happy about it. They said "they are not affiliated" and no doubt some still resent the fact that you took all those dues away from the TWU. Kerrigan is still in power and so is Peggy Olstien.

It made our cause our own. It showed a work group composed of mainly woman could like manage on there own. It gave new strength to Nurses and textile workers to do the same.

From what Ive seen Women have always been courageous labor leaders, Mother Jones, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn were out there and gone long before any of us were born.

Had the pilots and mechanic gone out, it would always be that the reason the company gave ground was due to them.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Obviously, you're THB supporter. You must be a non-speaker with a seniority of 20-25 years, right? Remember, us speakers don't count in AAPFA. That's ok, I don't want to fly with you either. She is in cahoots with the company. Open your eyes! All she cares about is the few seniors and she's just looking out for her pension. You don't know me, so cease from attacking me personally. She's trying to make things better for the senior f/a's. Just ask any speakers!

[post="280877"][/post]​

Okoge has no problem spewing her bile and venom, but when somebody dares challenge her, she accuses them of attacking her. This is a sure sign of somebody that only trades in rumor and innuendo.

 

[Bob Owens]

No it does not have to do with the ten year background check:

Flight Attendant Certification Victory!
The Flight Attendant Certification language contained in the recently passed FAA Reauthorization bill is a significant victory for us. Thanks to the hard work of AFA’s Government Affairs Department and the members of the Government Affairs committees at all AFA carriers, the U.S. Congress recognized Flight Attendants as trained safety professionals.

The Long Road to Victory
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) requires Flight Attendants on board commercial aircraft and establishes the basic training required of Flight Attendants. While pilots, flight engineers, navigators, dispatchers and air traffic controllers are certified, Flight Attendants, the on-board safety experts, are not certified. AFA believes it is time to certify Flight Attendants to ensure that we are properly trained and qualified. We believe that the lack of certification prevents Flight Attendants from being treated in the same manner as other aviation safety professionals.

Safety and security are our primary concerns. We do more than evacuate airplanes in emergency situations. We are the first line of defense dealing with hijackers, terrorists and abusive passengers. We are the fire department at 30,000 feet who must be able to detect and fight fires. We are the paramedics effectively handling in-flight medical emergencies ranging from heart attacks to turbulent related injuries. We assist passengers in aircraft decompressions and are the on-site bomb detection squad. In addition, we perform routine safety and service duties on board the aircraft.

Background
The FAA and Federal Aviation Regulations already require flight attendants to pass FAA-approved safety and security training programs and require flight attendants to be onboard all passenger aircraft with 20 or more seats. The FAA requires flight attendants to be trained in accordance with FAR’s that include passing FAA-approved training courses through a series of competency checks and tests, as well as passing mandatory re-current training every twelve months. Currently, the FAA certifies all other aviation workers who have demonstrated a stipulated level of knowledge and skills. Flight attendants deserve similar certification of their professional abilities. Flight attendant certification would be similar to certifying mechanics where no additional medical qualifications are required. Flight attendants play a key role in the security of passengers onboard commercial aircraft and are now the last line of defense to defend the cockpit, themselves and their passengers from lethal attacks by suicidal terrorists in the aircraft cabin. The FAA should ultimately attest to and ensure the qualifications of flight attendants through an official certification process, thereby restoring consumer confidence in air travel and improving the overall safety and security of our air transportation system.

[post="280940"][/post]​

From what I'm reading here its still a company run program. From the sound of it there will be no real changes other than perhaps they will recieve a paper from the company that says they completeed an FAA approved training course. Mechanics and pilots recieve their certification from standardized programs that are not associated with any airline and their certification is portable.

 

[Bob Owens]

She is in cahoots with the company. Open your eyes! All she cares about is the few seniors and she's just looking out for her pension.

[post="280877"][/post]​

If you really want to find out about her pension write to the DOL in Washington DC and request IRS Form 5500. Thats the form that discloses the pension plan that union leaders set up for themselves. Another good source of information is the LM-2 which can be obtained right over the internet from the DOL also.

The one question I have is would you rather have THB in place or the person who put the current contract in place?

 

[FA Mikey]

Obviously, you're THB supporter. You must be a non-speaker with a seniority of 20-25 years, right? Remember, us speakers don't count in AAPFA. That's ok, I don't want to fly with you either. She is in cahoots with the company. Open your eyes! All she cares about is the few seniors and she's just looking out for her pension. You don't know me, so cease from attacking me personally. She's trying to make things better for the senior f/a's. Just ask any speakers!

[post="280877"][/post]​

A good reason to explain why flight attendants have little or now pension to retire on. Junior people who whine and cry, that senior people might fight during negotiations for that, while at the same time do not understand why senior people do not retire. Hmmm is there any correlation?

 

[czerny]

If you think I'm just trying to get a rise out of you guys, wait and see what happens. Oh and as for paycut, straight reserve and furlough are concerned, all I said was that those things might be on her next agenda when it's time for us to give up more pay. I never said that they were on the letter. I just thought that it was strange that THB and APFA website was on Flight service website, that's all. I thought that AA and APFA are separate. Isn't that the reason why we don't turn each other in to the company and call professional standards(totally worthless)? Or am I wrong on that? Anyway, it does not matter. It's useless to talk to you since you're THB supporter. You won't understand it in that case. Have a great day!

[post="280880"][/post]​

With all due respect, us furloughees, both the last 98 AAers left and the TWAers have not been kept in the loop by APFA. I do acknowledge the fact that when I emailed THB, she did reply.But, for the rest of us, we are left out there, wondering how long we should wait? On the speaker issue, I can tell you that it is not cheap to take language classess. At the New England Language Institute, a private Mandarin Chinese class is $437.00. IT is not a cheap skill to be able to speak a language, and so, if the company isn't going to pay, then how can you blame an employee for refusing to give unpaid free service? I myself am taking chinese lessons and French classess to better myself in the job market. Will AA have enough Mandarin speakers in April of next year without a recall? Or is it going to be one speaker per flight for the entire plane? Can you imagine evacuating an entire 777 with just one or two speakers?

 

[StraaightTaalk]

czerny,

While I am looking forward to the day when everybody has been recalled, I am confused by your statement. You state that you are not being kept in the loop by APFA.

Do you not have access to the Hotline?

Do you not have access to the APFA website?

Do you not receive Skyword?

The information is there, but only if you take the time to read and listen. I guess you just want to be spoonfed. :down:

 

[700UW]

Bob,

Here is the FAA link to it.

FAA F/A Certification