Arpey And Apfa Talking Cooperation

[Bob Owens]

I didn't "burn" my sick leave when I left any of my other jobs, why should I burn it at AA? Sick leave is not an entitlement for you, me, or anyone else. No company is required to grant you paid sick leave. It is a benefit to used WHEN NEEDED. I am rarely sick; and I am also old enough to know that I might have health problems down the road that might require more than just a day or two off; so, I don't use it just because I don't like the line I held this month. At my seniority I would need a LOT more sick leave if I wanted to use that excuse.

I don't use things that don't belong to me or that I am not entitled to, but that's just me. What I don't understand is why you are so angry about something that you have no control over? The company either will or it will not ask us for further concessions. If they do, and we vote no, then they would probably follow the lead of the other majors, go into bankruptcy and impose even worse concessions on us. Recognizing that fact does not make me pro-company or anti-union.

And, if you are fairly junior as I am, there is no point in not accepting the fact that the APFA will not hesitate to throw me under the bus again if it saves the senior people 10 cents an hour. I was furloughed without furlough pay just because APFA wanted to "punish" the former TWA flight attendants for the fact that the company gave them pay seniority. I just happened to be what the Pentagon euphemistically calls collateral damage.

And, since the APFA approach seems to be to pretend it's not happening until they get the letter from the company, and makes no attempt to develop counter-offers in advance, or to go to the company and offer non-monetary concessions in return for no furloughs...well, let's just say I'm not betting the mortgage payment on APFA protecting my job.

Well your "sick Leave" is a negotiated benifit. Under the TWU contract there is a cap. Once you accrue the cap thats it, you dont accrue anymore. So if you had 25 years of perfect attendance and had been "giving back" days for 10 years and you got very ill the company would only give you what you had accrued. You would not get anything more than that nor would you get credit for the days you lost.

Everybody gets sick, especially those who work in the cabin with that dirty air. Some people feel compelled to act like a trooper and go in when they shouldnt, and get everyone else sick. Why? You have the sick time, use it, in the long run it saves the company money because less people get sick.

 

[B.O.B.]

Well your "sick Leave" is a negotiated benifit. Under the TWU contract there is a cap. Once you accrue the cap thats it, you dont accrue anymore. So if you had 25 years of perfect attendance and had been "giving back" days for 10 years and you got very ill the company would only give you what you had accrued. You would not get anything more than that nor would you get credit for the days you lost.

Everybody gets sick, especially those who work in the cabin with that dirty air. Some people feel compelled to act like a trooper and go in when they shouldnt, and get everyone else sick. Why? You have the sick time, use it, in the long run it saves the company money because less people get sick.

He is a pro-compAAny employee who will bend over and do whatever AA, tells him to do. He sounds like an a** kisser who drinks the AA juice!

 

[jimntx]

He is a pro-compAAny employee who will bend over and do whatever AA, tells him to do. He sounds like an a** kisser who drinks the AA juice!

Well, fortunately your opinion of me is not really any of my business; so, I'll just let you stew in it since being angry seems to be really important to you. Enjoy your ulcer.

 

[B.O.B.]

Enjoy your ulcer.

To young for that! I don't let this junk job get to me. It's people like you who make it so difficult for others. If you are so pro-compAAny, why not be an FSM?

 

[nbmcg01]

To young for that! I don't let this junk job get to me. It's people like you who make it so difficult for others. If you are so pro-compAAny, why not be an FSM?

Ok, I'm going to jump in here because Jim's comment has absoutely NOTHING to do with being "pro company" or anything other than an adult and a professional. Personal responsibility is not a "koolaid" issue.

Actually, you should all be "pro company". The success of AA means a little more job security for everyone. And yes, this is coming from a former TWA long time Union rep. I don't have to like what the Company did during the last round of concessions but I blame an inexperienced, vindictive, and unprepared Union leader for the fate "suffered" by the APFA f/as. If I had been a Company negotiator I would have had a field day.
You can't blame mangt. for grabbing the golden egg. The vote of the former TWA f/as even went as far as to make the f/a vote a solid "NO" but the Union reopened the unsecure voting line and gee would you believe, not one single additional no vote but enough yes votes somehow "appeared" that the Union and Company got what they wanted. This time will be no different because instead of coming out of the gate and preparing for either more concessions and/or early reopeners, the f/a Union has done nothing.

Participatory management does not have to be a "bad" thing. We negotiated some of our most f/a friendly work rules during a bk because of the participatory mngt. agreement. Our dollar per hour pay was lower than AAs but our work rules made it easier to make up lost base pay while having to be on the property less days per month. This is why the "substantial" dollar per hour raise under the APFA's agreement did not produce the comparable increase in salary. I actually made less while flying more days. Under participatory mangt. agreements it is easier to negotiate no cost or cost neutral quality of life CBA changes. There are many items in the current CBA that could be tightened up to provide cost savings for the company while actually making life better for the f/a. The main objection I tend to hear from AA (both f/as and mangt.) is "we've always done it that way"..That attitude is a deal breaker on all sides.

One final note on attendance. My children's high school has a policy if you miss more than 8 days a semester, you lose your credits. One of my foster kids felt that those 8 days were "his" and therefore it was his "right" to take them. Long story, short, senior year, entitlement days taken, got sick 2 weeks before the end of the school year and almost didn't graduate...Straight As and almost blew it. Had to attend because being the "mean mom" I hadn't sent note for entitlement days so they were unexcussed. Let's just say he has a pretty strong work ethic today. Sick days are negotiated, true. But as a former Union rep, I can tell you they are to be used for one purpose only, being too sick to come to work. (unless you work under an agreement that says you can use them for a family member's illness)

 

[jimntx]

To young for that! I don't let this junk job get to me. It's people like you who make it so difficult for others. If you are so pro-compAAny, why not be an FSM?

I've been a manager--not in the airline business. I am a flight attendant because I LIKE being a flight attendant, and I'm good at it. And, I have to ask...how does showing up to work and not abusing my sick leave "make it difficult for others?"

Take a piece of advice from someone much older than you--I turned 60 Easter Sunday. Life is way too short to work at a job you seem to hate as much as this one.

Now, you are not going to believe this because I didn't when I was told this years ago...
Tomorrow, you are going to wake up and you are going to be my age (it goes by that fast. It really does.) And, if you are still working at AA and still have the attitude about it that you seem to--"junk job"--you are going to hate yourself for "wasting" your life here. You anger will not be at AA, it will be at yourself. Trust me on this one. I've experienced it, and I've seen it and see it in others.

For most of us, your choices are get born rich, marry rich, or find some kind of work that you enjoy doing because you are going to be doing it for a long time.

(Oh, and age has nothing to do with whether or not you get ulcers. I know a very gentle 9 year old child who has ulcers. She is the child of someone who is angry at their company and the world and curses at anyone who dares to disagree with them about the company they work for--kind of like you.)

 

[Garfield1966]

It is statistically impossible for a sick list to jump 100% for a period of 2 weeks and then go back down to normal every single year with out people abusing the sick list. If anyone here believes that this bump is based primarily on legitimate illnesses, then the CDC needs to be contacted and there needs to be an embargo placed on all holiday travel.

We all know that is not the case though don't we. If the sick list bumps 100% each and every year just for this 2 week period, then statistically, at least 50% of the people on the sick list are not sick. One might be able to bump the % a little due to the "added stress" of the holidays but I would bet that is an insignificant amount. Let me know if anyone needs the phone number for the CDC. I'd love to hear that phone call.

As for the person who thinks that sick time can be used for what ever one chooses when ever one chooses to use it, it would have been call vacation time then, not sick time. Sick time is used when one is sick, vacation time is used for vacation. Funny how it works that way huh? We all agreed to it when we hired on. Don't like it? Then feel free to find another job

.

 

[TWAnr]

That is why f/as who are based in LGA have to pay New York state and city income tax, even if they commute from Texas which has NO income tax.

Jim,

You are wrong on this point. My wife was based at JFK with TWA and at STL with TWA and AA, while we were living in California. She never paid state or local income taxes in either New York or Missouri. Both airlines withheld California taxes while she worked in New York and Missouri, though, because that is where we live and file our tax returns.

 

[j7915]

To young for that! I don't let this junk job get to me. It's people like you who make it so difficult for others. If you are so pro-compAAny, why not be an FSM?

Sorry to say, but stress is not the only source of ulcers. So don't count on a relaxed lifestyle keeping your stomach happy.

 

[jimntx]

Jim,

You are wrong on this point. My wife was based at JFK with TWA and at STL with TWA and AA, while we were living in California. She never paid state or local income taxes in either New York or Missouri. Both airlines withheld California taxes while she worked in New York and Missouri, though, because that is where we live and file our tax returns.

The only legal requirement on a company is to deduct income taxes for the state and municipality where you are employed. The issue with the airlines is defining where you are employed--your base, their payroll center, corporate headquarters? I know that when I was at Texaco, they got caught by the state of New York because they were trying to say that the executives' work address was the Houston offices because Texas does not have an income tax. The executive offices were at White Plains. There were back taxes that had to be paid.

But, all this is a side issue to the thread topic which was will there or won't there be additional concessions and if there are what might they be. B.O.B. was just trying to find some way to attack me personally because I don't hate my job, I don't believe everything the company says is a lie, I dared to disagree with him/her, and I continue to breathe. How much more inconsiderate could I possibly be?

 

[mjk]

Nbmcg01, your last post had to be one of the best I've read on this board.
Hopefully some of the really bitter ones on this board will read it and take it to heart.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

No more double time and a half
one less week of vacation

I get sick just thinking about it
about 5 days worth

 

[bigdawgs]

Jim,

I believe the income tax is predicated on how much time you are actually at your crew base. For an example, I was BOS based for many years, although I have resided in NH for almost as many years.

I never paid Mass. tax because the amount of time I was actually at my crew base (physically) was the equivalent of 7% of the time I was working. Therefore, any of us residing out of state and flying out of BOS were exempted from Mass. tax.

 

[FA Mikey]

Is it taken from your filed W2? That the company assumes your permanent residence (state) is the same as the one you list to the federal government? I remember how Bush SR used an apartment in Houston as a residence to avoid paying personal income tax in Maine.

 

[Bob Owens]

Ok, I'm going to jump in here because Jim's comment has absoutely NOTHING to do with being "pro company" or anything other than an adult and a professional. Personal responsibility is not a "koolaid" issue.

Actually, you should all be "pro company". The success of AA means a little more job security for everyone.

Does it now? What if the companys strategy for sucess is to contract out all the flying to foreigners or pay you so little that you cant pay your bills? There is no "secuity" in working for less unless its with the government.

And yes, this is coming from a former TWA long time Union rep. I don't have to like what the Company did during the last round of concessions but I blame an inexperienced, vindictive, and unprepared Union leader for the fate "suffered" by the APFA f/as. If I had been a Company negotiator I would have had a field day.


You can't blame mangt. for grabbing the golden egg.

Of course you can. The company made a deal and then broke it, sure our leaders let us down, maybe APFA officials are on the company payroll like TWU officials, but both parties are guilty in the crime of bribery. But no matter how you look at it the company is to be blamed. The company demands that we are honest with them and wants us to give our utmost to them, including sacrificing our family life for the bottom line of the company, they in turn have a moral obligation to treat us the same way they want us to treat them. If the company lies to us and basically decides to try and see how much they can take away from us before we have mass quittings or wildcat job actions then the workers are morally justified in being just as dishonest and scheming as the company.

The vote of the former TWA f/as even went as far as to make the f/a vote a solid "NO" but the Union reopened the unsecure voting line and gee would you believe, not one single additional no vote but enough yes votes somehow "appeared" that the Union and Company got what they wanted. This time will be no different because instead of coming out of the gate and preparing for either more concessions and/or early reopeners, the f/a Union has done nothing.

You really should look into whether or not your union officials are being paid off like TWU officials. In the case of the TWU the company was paying TWU officials $3.1 million a year.

Participatory management does not have to be a "bad" thing.

Agreed.


One final note on attendance. My children's high school has a policy if you miss more than 8 days a semester, you lose your credits. One of my foster kids felt that those 8 days were "his" and therefore it was his "right" to take them. Long story, short, senior year, entitlement days taken, got sick 2 weeks before the end of the school year and almost didn't graduate...Straight As and almost blew it. Had to attend because being the "mean mom" I hadn't sent note for entitlement days so they were unexcussed. Let's just say he has a pretty strong work ethic today. Sick days are negotiated, true. But as a former Union rep, I can tell you they are to be used for one purpose only, being too sick to come to work. (unless you work under an agreement that says you can use them for a family member's illness)

Ok, so the school year is 180 days. The work year is 260, less vacation. So using that ratio of 16 days per grade we should be allowed up to 23 sick days before the company takes any action.

Mechanics baggage handlers etc work in severe weather. Crews cant just get through their day, and look forward to recuperating at home, so while other workers in other industries may make it to work with "minor" illnesses its unrealistic, perhaps even dangerous to expect the same of people who do not work standard hours in a climate controlled enviornment.

The fact is this industry requires exraordinary sacrifices and many work under severe conditions so it should be expected that sick time would be higher than in many other industries. Years ago they offered exceptional compensation to make up for the exceptional sacrifices. Its unrealistic for the industry to expect the same while giving much, much less.

Keep the old "you knew this when you signed on" line, most of the flip side, the good side of what we signed on for has been eliminated.

Workers as a whole are better off to show a severe spike in absenteeism, or have a Wildcat job action, since we know our unions would never call for one, without any negative reaction the company would only be encouraged to take away more. As you already said the union isnt going to do anything to stop them. Absenteeism is more a sign of poor morale than poor professionalism.

The fact is what did the company expect would happen come Christmas when they took away Holiday pay or never paid it? Or when they lowered compensation and changed it from a fun and remunerative career to just a job that can barely pay the bills?

A few years back they offered Crew members a Millenium bonus to show up over the holiday season because they always had high absenteeism on certain holidays and they were worried that no one would show up. However those workgruops that got Holiday pay did not see the same spikes and were not offered the bonus. If you want people to show up for work on holidays, sacrifice precious family moments, you need to offer more of an incentive than "Its your job", after all the person telling you this is more than likely not working those holidays. Employees who are not treated well to begin with are more likely to take their chances and say "fire me if you can". Ever since the company eliminated Holiday pay I've noticed that a lot more people do not show up for Christmas, and all the threats in the world is not going to make it go back the way it was.

Jim,

You are wrong on this point. My wife was based at JFK with TWA and at STL with TWA and AA, while we were living in California. She never paid state or local income taxes in either New York or Missouri. Both airlines withheld California taxes while she worked in New York and Missouri, though, because that is where we live and file our tax returns.

I dont think so.

I believe if you work in New York and reside in another state you will still pay taxes in New York but the tax you pay in the state where you live gets deducted from the amount New York gets. So if your state has no income tax but you work out of New York you pay the full amount to New York. It could be that the CA tax rate was higher than the New York rate so she didnt owe New York taxes.

NYC used to have an income tax for people who worked in NYC but lived elsewhere (Non-residents tax) but it was eliminated a while ago.