The Future Of BA Cabin Crew May Just Be The Future Of AA F/a's

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galleyguy4u2

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Aug 9, 2003
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Future of cabin crew behind BA row

Analysis
By Martin Shankleman,
Employment correspondent, BBC News



BA has said it is in a battle for survival in the global downturn
To say these are turbulent times at British Airways would be an understatement.

And quite apart from its self-confessed "fight for survival" because of rising costs and a fall in demand, staffing issues are high on the agenda.

At the centre of a dispute at the airline is the union fear that BA wants to tear up the contracts of cabin crew, by slashing status and pay, and bring in new recruits on rock-bottom salaries.

Customer service, which crew feel is central to the reputation of the airline, will be irreparably damaged as staff levels are cut and standards collapse, they say.

'Confidential documents'

Union sources insist that BA has painted a future where cabin crew - traditionally well-rewarded in industry terms with clear promotional opportunities - are replaced by new recruits who are poorly paid, can only afford to live in rented accommodation near an airport, and are expected to quit after a maximum of five years.

They also claim that BA plans to abandon its commitment to high-quality service, which had earned it the slogan "the world's favourite airline".



Chief executive Willie Walsh is working for a month without pay
Management are prepared to slash service levels, according to the union.

They say BA is citing the defunct music chain Our Price Records, of all things, as a model to copy - whereby customers entering the record store were greeted by staff who knew little about the products on sale and would refer all questions to a single manager who understood the business.

Leaked company documents marked "strictly confidential", proposed radical new contracts for fresh recruits, and newly-promoted staff. They included a single on-board management grade, no seniority, promotion purely on merit, and pay set at market rate plus 10%.

The plans were presented in a document to company workers and unanimously rejected at a mass meeting last week.

However, staff fear the airline could force them to accept the new terms through imposition.

Conciliation talks

BA's 14,000 cabin crew are well-paid in industry terms, according to a recent survey for the Civil Aviation Authority, which suggested they earn twice as much as rivals on Virgin Atlantic.

The average pay for a BA crew member is put at £29,900 a year, including bonuses and allowances, compared with just £14,400 at Virgin Atlantic.

Insiders claim some BA cabin crew earn much more than the average, with a senior crew director on a long haul flight paid about £60,000 a year.

A letter from the Unite union, to be handed to shareholders at the airline's annual meeting, warns: "We are not a low-cost airline and cannot compete in the market. We do not employ cheap labour on short-term contracts with little future for the business.

"We are a premier airline, a standard-setter. Instead of being an employer proud of how it treats its employees, it will become one with the bare legal minimum of protections in place."

BA has warned that it is in a battle for survival, and it must restructure and permanently reduce its cost base.

However the company has refused to comment on the status of negotiations with staff, with talks pending with the conciliation service ACAS.
 
I posted the other day (in a now-closed thread) about the very real possibility that AA might welcome a strike by the FAs (or maybe even lock them out). Unemployment is about 10% with millions of people out of work. Every year, about 4 million kids turn 19 years old. How difficult would it really be for AA to recruit and train about 15,000 of them, just like NW did with its gypsy mechanics in preparation for the AMFA mess a few years back?

It's not the furloughed ex-TWA FAs that are the potential problem; it's the millions and millions of people who would gladly enforce the FARs for probably half the pay of the senior mamas. Starting pay isn't the problem - it's the $50/hr at the top of the scale that's expensive, compared to what unemployed youth would accept to be able to fly all over the world (and to Paducah). And aren't almost all AA FAs at the top of scale?
 
I posted the other day (in a now-closed thread) about the very real possibility that AA might welcome a strike by the FAs (or maybe even lock them out). Unemployment is about 10% with millions of people out of work. Every year, about 4 million kids turn 19 years old. How difficult would it really be for AA to recruit and train about 15,000 of them, just like NW did with its gypsy mechanics in preparation for the AMFA mess a few years back?

It's not the furloughed ex-TWA FAs that are the potential problem; it's the millions and millions of people who would gladly enforce the FARs for probably half the pay of the senior mamas. Starting pay isn't the problem - it's the $50/hr at the top of the scale that's expensive, compared to what unemployed youth would accept to be able to fly all over the world (and to Paducah). And aren't almost all AA FAs at the top of scale?
Yeah... Right...
Just that easy to replace 16,000 F/As...... it would take years... Please...
And of course there are millions of people that want this job but what will this job be like if the salary is cut in half and no benefits.....
There is no comparison between the NW mechanics being replaced and F/As being replaced.... Easier to replace mechcanics.
 
Yeah... Right...
Just that easy to replace 16,000 F/As...... it would take years... Please...
And of course there are millions of people that want this job but what will this job be like if the salary is cut in half and no benefits.....
There is no comparison between the NW mechanics being replaced and F/As being replaced.... Easier to replace mechcanics.
I disagree. Do you have any data to back up your claim? NWA had over a year to recruit, train and position scab mechanics. Many mechanics, myself included received cards in the mail on how to apply for the jobs, well before the strike was set. Same can be said about the F/A's, or any other work group. The RLA gives businesses ample time to prepare for a strike. By the time you get through all of the "cooling off periods" any strategic advantage you may have had is gone. Bottom line is if there are people willing to cross a picket line, you will be replaced.
 
Yeah... Right...
Just that easy to replace 16,000 F/As...... it would take years... Please...
And of course there are millions of people that want this job but what will this job be like if the salary is cut in half and no benefits.....
There is no comparison between the NW mechanics being replaced and F/As being replaced.... Easier to replace mechcanics.



You actually could not be more wrong. By FAA standards they could train people to replace you in less than 7 days - Yes, that right, They could easily train and replace 16,000 flight attendants in less than a month, by renting a facility off property and train them and pay them to remain "on call" ... Lets think about this, it is MUCH harder and much more techinical to be a mechanic than a flight attendant, yet NWA, trained mechanics and replaced their union mechanics. You will be quickly dissapointed and REPLACED, if you live on the false theory that AMR would need more than a year to replace you - I would bet the first day you went on strike, they would have more than enough replacement workers to replace you. Say Buh-Bye -


Just and FYI for ya, this is why CHAOS was created by the AFA. Look it up and learn a little bit about it. Times have changed people, and if you think you can strike today, say goodbye to your job.
 
I posted the other day (in a now-closed thread) about the very real possibility that AA might welcome a strike by the FAs (or maybe even lock them out). Unemployment is about 10% with millions of people out of work. Every year, about 4 million kids turn 19 years old. How difficult would it really be for AA to recruit and train about 15,000 of them, just like NW did with its gypsy mechanics in preparation for the AMFA mess a few years back?
Interesting possibility. Although I doubt the FA's are now or will be put in a position to strike. There are a few who think they can extract large pay raises from the company. Most only have to look to friends and neighbors to realize it just is not possible.

AA played that card before. They had trained FA's waiting to go in the event Gibbs called a strike. Ultimately the union back down and settled with the company.

In the strike of 93, and admittedly in a booming economy the people applying for the open positions were less than desirable. It is part of the reason none of those people who applied and who were trained pillow pushers were ever heard from again. Even now with many people willing to take just about any job. The pay and benefits are less, and if AA had its way the working conditions would be pretty sad too. Cranky and lazy as a lot of flight attendants are (not just picking on them, just about anyone in a customer service position these days has a contempt for the customers) I would choose them over a bunch of 19, 22, 35 or 40 year olds in for a short temp spot.
 
Just and FYI for ya, this is why CHAOS was created by the AFA. Look it up and learn a little bit about it. Times have changed people, and if you think you can strike today, say goodbye to your job.
AFA created chaos because they are sad weak disorganized union. Chaos is for union groups who cannot get enough membership support to hold a strike. Look at how sad they were at NWA. (AFA) They backed down when they had the chance to strike, not once but twice, and waited for a judge to rule they couldnt and then said shucks darn, we were really going to shut this place down. That was the most pathic thing I have ever seen. Along with their holy boycott of a movie not portraying flight attendants in a positive light.

If you have to have a strike, the best, strongest and quickest to end is an all for one walk out. Look this up, the only truly successful flight attendant strike was the APFA against AA.
 
AFA created chaos because they are sad weak disorganized union. Chaos is for union groups who cannot get enough membership support to hold a strike. Look at how sad they were at NWA. (AFA) They backed down when they had the chance to strike, not once but twice, and waited for a judge to rule they couldnt and then said shucks darn, we were really going to shut this place down. That was the most pathic thing I have ever seen. Along with their holy boycott of a movie not portraying flight attendants in a positive light.

If you have to have a strike, the best, strongest and quickest to end is an all for one walk out. Look this up, the only truly successful flight attendant strike was the APFA against AA.


Well FA Mikey, I for one, wouldnt say that I am a member of a weak union. We could go on all day about whos is better and so on and so forth, but lets face it, even your ALMIGHTY FABULOUS and FLOURISHING APFA wouldn't survive the first day of a strike, which is why, if anything, you would do CHAOS, everyone knows including yourself, no matter how much membership is participating, be it 30% or 100%, you as a flight attendant would lose your job during a strike b/c you are VERY replaceable.. I am sorry, but it takes less time to train a flight attendant than a wal-mart cashier.. Face Facts, if you go on strike u will be replaced, your not as specialized as you think you are.
 
Mikey, I've got to side with goodgirl37 on this one. I think Chaos is more effective, especially during a ****** economy.
 
Yeah... Right...
Just that easy to replace 16,000 F/As...... it would take years... Please...
And of course there are millions of people that want this job but what will this job be like if the salary is cut in half and no benefits.....
There is no comparison between the NW mechanics being replaced and F/As being replaced.... Easier to replace mechcanics.
Easier to replace mechanics? Eh? How long is your FA training? Two weeks or less? I rest my case. I envied the APFA resolve in 1993, and was happy they won the battle against Uncle Bobby. However, in today's economic climate, and the fact that the Federal Government always sides with airline management with the threat of any job action, (Obama will also, it matters not). FA's will be replaced in days, or quicker if AA or any airline has time to recruit scabs.

The AMFA AMTs' at NWA were replaced is because of NMB collusion with Doug Stealand, releasing the union as Stealand wanted. The fact that he had a year to train his scabs, and that he decimated the NWA AMT work force through two Force Majoures and outsourcing started by the iam. If AMFA could have walked NWA immediately after learning of the scab training, it more that likely would have been a different story.

That's what needs to happen to win, give management no time to plan, shoot the bird to the RLA and the NMB, and walk immediately......wish it could be done. However many unions today are almost a dirty as management. Look to the twu and the iam for prime examples.

I hope AA management doesn't try a FA move like BA.
 
You actually could not be more wrong. By FAA standards they could train people to replace you in less than 7 days - Yes, that right, They could easily train and replace 16,000 flight attendants in less than a month, by renting a facility off property and train them and pay them to remain "on call" ... Lets think about this, it is MUCH harder and much more techinical to be a mechanic than a flight attendant, yet NWA, trained mechanics and replaced their union mechanics. You will be quickly dissapointed and REPLACED, if you live on the false theory that AMR would need more than a year to replace you - I would bet the first day you went on strike, they would have more than enough replacement workers to replace you. Say Buh-Bye -


Just and FYI for ya, this is why CHAOS was created by the AFA. Look it up and learn a little bit about it. Times have changed people, and if you think you can strike today, say goodbye to your job.
Can't imagine training 16,000 F/As at different "rental facilities". Would these places have simulators/ trainers??? ..... What would that be like????
And more than enough to replace us on the first day ??? We have over 600 airplanes...
In 1993 the first day was a mess... AA trained 400 management/scabs to fill in .... Over 14,000 F/As struck... It didn't work for one minute...
 
Well FA Mikey, I for one, wouldnt say that I am a member of a weak union. We could go on all day about whos is better and so on and so forth, but lets face it, even your ALMIGHTY FABULOUS and FLOURISHING APFA wouldn't survive the first day of a strike,
Already proven. Too bad AFA has only showen its able to back down.

you would do CHAOS, everyone knows including yourself, no matter how much membership is participating, be it 30% or 100%, you as a flight attendant would lose your job during a strike b/c you are VERY replaceable..
APFA flight attendants already proved you wrong. Its not even a I think, they showed it can be done and did it.

I am sorry, but it takes less time to train a flight attendant than a wal-mart cashier..
Really how long was your training at walmart?

Face Facts,
Face facts? You havent posted any in this post.

if you go on strike u will be replaced, your not as specialized as you think you are.
Your words not mine. Fact is I trained and the FAA mandates training hours and quality. What government agency oversees your cashier training?
 
Mikey, I've got to side with goodgirl37 on this one. I think Chaos is more effective, especially during shitty economy.
Its already shown to be ineffective. In this crappy economy you can say there will be hundreds of people willing to take your job. Also in this crappy economy AA cannot afford to fly empty planes and incur the losses like they did in 93. With a full on strike you can also get support from other unions like the teamsters who will not drive past even a single person with a sign to pick up or deliver. A strike of an entire employee group would cripple the airline. A chaos thing would be nothing more than an annoyance to them.
 
20 years ago, Mike, I would have agreed with you--especially about the Teamsters. I grew up in Birmingham, AL which in the 50's was one of the most heavily unionized cities in the U.S. But, since so many airline unions have been willing to cross each other's picket lines in the past few years, I'm not sure we would get much support from other unions.

And, there is still the tiny little issue of what APFA did to the former TWA flight attendants. Now, we are not going to start that argument again, but just remember that most other national unions are affiliated with the AFL-CIO. The AFL-CIO standard--regardless of whether you call it a purchase, a merger, or a ham sandwich--is date of hire. We can all argue the "well, if it weren't for us they wouldn't have a job at all" position, but we don't really know that. AMR was not the only bidder for TWA. Or, we can argue that APFA was simply following DFR for its current members. I refer you back to the AFL-CIO standard. From their standpoint, we do not hold the high moral ground.

I'm not convinced that APFA will get much support from other unions--particularly ones that have done merger/purchase combinations differently from the way we did it.

As far as hiring replacement flight attendants? If AA were to run an ad in the Dallas Morning News for an open house on hiring, and they listed the starting pay at $20.24/hr--our RPA induced starting pay--the line would stretch from Centerport all the way down to Six Flags, and we would have to rent the new Cowboys stadium for the overflow. Granted, most people don't understand until they go to the interview that they will not be paid for 40 hours/week, but there are a lot of people who would still stay for the interview even after they find out it's for 70 hours/month. People who are underemployed right now--working below their skill level or working only part-time--would jump at the chance.

And, considering some of the flight attendants we already have that the company makes no effort to get rid of, do you really believe that they care much anymore about the quality of the flight attendant? I don't.
 
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