the IAM is mad at the back door deals at AA!

[WNMECH]

Since the Toilet Works Union and the I A M a company union don’t give any info, here is a link from AMFA that may help explain some questions. http://www.amfanatio...dment_flier.pdf

Thanks for that link.
It explains the most common methods of combining lists as I had mentioned earlier.
All these methods can be used to dovetail lists.
Dovetail is only a word but these are the methods of dovetailing.
Apparently 700UW thinks that dovetail only means one thing.
It dosen't.
It can mean different things when a different method is used.

 

[Bob Owens]

After what TWU agreed to, I doubt it will be that hard to get the cards.

The US employees dont want to lose their pension again and have nothing.

And I still have plenty of contacts out there to see what is going on.

And how many times did AMFA try to raid and it never went anywhere, the same can be said for the IBT at the merger.

Put CBA up against CBA and see which is better, the IAM one over the TWU one any day.

No doubt the US/IAM deal is better, but not by much. But its not better than the UAL/IBT or the SWA/AMFA deal, not even close, its not even close to Delta.

Both of those unions would be able to get cards if we ended up IAM.

As far as the guys losing the IAM pension, thats probably why they wanted it but I doubt they lose it because the Govt probably hold the IAM pension plan to the same standards as others in that a benefit once earned cant be taken away. Given the opportunity to keep the IAM pension at $33/hr or go to a union that has won their mechanics wages far in excess of that most will go for the better wage.

No need to worry about a card drive against the TWU, IMO the deal has been cut already, IAM gets all the mechanics, TWU gets Fleet and the rest. The TWU wants us gone, before the Convention, but the IAM will have to find a place for Bobby Gless, Don Videtich et al, or at least they will ask for that. If you give it you are guaranteed to face an AMFA election within a year, even if you bury them as organizers.

 

[unionguy1]

After what TWU agreed to, I doubt it will be that hard to get the cards.

The US employees dont want to lose their pension again and have nothing.

And I still have plenty of contacts out there to see what is going on.

And how many times did AMFA try to raid and it never went anywhere, the same can be said for the IBT at the merger.

Put CBA up against CBA and see which is better, the IAM one over the TWU one any day.

I would not give you a fresh steamy pile of dog dookie for either one. Sign a card and vote AMFA.

Kind Regards,
Harvey West

 

[comatose]

No doubt the US/IAM deal is better, but not by much. But its not better than the UAL/IBT or the SWA/AMFA deal, not even close, its not even close to Delta.

Both of those unions would be able to get cards if we ended up IAM.

No need to worry about a card drive against the TWU, IMO the deal has been cut already, IAM gets all the mechanics, TWU gets Fleet and the rest. The TWU wants us gone, before the Convention, but the IAM will have to find a place for Bobby Gless, Don Videtich et al, or at least they will ask for that. If you give it you are guaranteed to face an AMFA election within a year, even if you bury them as organizers.

Management will find a place for these two blithering idiots. They won't have to change their work habits considering they act like
management right now.

 

[700UW]

How is it fair? Air Tran is the kind of place you work to get experience so you can get a job at a place like WN , thats why.

Even with the 4 year adjustment they still hit the lottery.

US and AA is a combination of two losers, neither side looks with envy at the other, both have crappy deals and bring little to the table.

If WN started operating at ISP I'd walk away from 26+ years at AA, or if I worked there, US, most of the guys I work with feel the same way.

And you call your self a unionist?

I would NEVER have you negotiate, nor represent me when you feel its ok to disadvantage one group over another, no wonder why you let the TWU screw the former TWA employees.

 

[700UW]

Virgin is Non-union-that means Staple

And your a union president?

The law also covers a non-union group merging with a unionized group.

 

[700UW]

If they cease to be IAM members they will no longer be eligible for future contributions.

They will keep what they have in it as long as they have the five years and are vested but wont accumulate future benefits, you have to be an IAM member to participate in the plan.

Come on Bob, your making this way to easy

 

[1AA]

If the IAM gets 35% A-Cards of the combined workforce they can force an election, guess you didnt know that.

Make sure you fill out AMFA cards.

 

[1AA]

Do you have the winning powerball numbers too?

You dont know which union would win, the TWU isnt a favorite of the AA employees.

AGREE 100%!! TWU MUST GOOOOOOOO to Hell.

 

[Kev3188]

I accept that opinion completly because you are correct that the decision to fight for our seniority was our SWA memberships alone.

With that being said, I would rather make the decisions that determine my future than have the TWU, IBT, IAM or anyone else tell me what I have to take.

You do not have to live with the results of our SLI.
Both sides got something out of our deal, voted it in and are satisfied with the result.
You will not find us apologizng for fighting for this deal because we know it was the fairest thing to ALL sides, not just the Airtran side.

I think (or at least hope) we understand each other here. I am 100% behind the idea of an engaged membership charting their own course. No, I don't not expect you to apologize, and no, your SLI does not directly affect me. However, we're both pro labor, working class Americans. Your groups' actions wrt the FL mechanics run counter to my idea of what being pro labor and working to raise the middle class in this country should be all about.

What if another commonly-accepted means of integration results in a staple? Say, for example, AA and Virgin America merge. Nearly every employee of AA was hired long before the most senior employee of VX and if an arbitration panel said that DOH was fair, that would be, for all intents and purposes, a staple job for the VX crew. Almost the same result if AA merged with jetBlue, except that there are a few senior B6 crewmembers hired before AA stopped hiring in mid-2001.

Those are some contorted examples, to be sure. As you pointed out, MB prevents one group from telling another workgroup "We're going to staple you to the bottom of our seniority list." But it certainly could work out that way given a young-enough workforce if the typical mantra of "Date of Hire" is the agreed-upon or arbitrated method.

Absolutely.

While there are only ~ a dozen recognized methods of integration that meet the "fair and equitable" threshold, the possible scenarios that can spring from them are exponentially more. I think people forget that what might meet the letter of the law may prove to be anything but "fair and equitable" in their eyes. All the more reason for both sides to get to the table and work out their own agreement.

How is it fair? Air Tran is the kind of place you work to get experience so you can get a job at a place like WN , thats why.

Even with the 4 year adjustment they still hit the lottery.

US and AA is a combination of two losers, neither side looks with envy at the other, both have crappy deals and bring little to the table.

If WN started operating at ISP I'd walk away from 26+ years at AA, or if I worked there, US, most of the guys I work with feel the same way.

...All well and good, except when/if you ever exchange your JFK ID for an ISP one, you will expect to start at Day 1 seniority.

Like I said above; IMO, taking away even a day from someone is totally at odds with the ideals we all should be working towards- especially when we're doing it to each other.

 

[1AA]

Thanks for that link.
It explains the most common methods of combining lists as I had mentioned earlier.
All these methods can be used to dovetail lists.
Dovetail is only a word but these are the methods of dovetailing.
Apparently 700UW thinks that dovetail only means one thing.
It dosen't.
It can mean different things when a different method is used.

Just to add one more to the list.

" End Tailing" AKA... Stabling to the bottom of the list.

 

[700UW]

Well said Kevin, some so called unionists are showing their true colors.

 

[WNMECH]

I think (or at least hope) we understand each other here. I am 100% behind the idea of an engaged membership charting their own course. No, I don't not expect you to apologize, and no, your SLI does not directly affect me. However, we're both pro labor, working class Americans. Your groups' actions wrt the FL mechanics run counter to my idea of what being pro labor and working to raise the middle class in this country should be all about.

We understand each others position on this perfectly.

We negotiated a deal that both sides found "fair and equitable" in their eyes enough to get about 85% yes votes on both sides. We got this deal at the table.

Your quote below agrees with me.

Absolutely.

While there are only ~ a dozen recognized methods of integration that meet the "fair and equitable" threshold, the possible scenarios that can spring from them are exponentially more. I think people forget that what might meet the letter of the law may prove to be anything but "fair and equitable" in their eyes. All the more reason for both sides to get to the table and work out their own agreement.

If we came to a negotiated deal that got the votes that it did, I think outsiders should respect it and move on.
Our deal raised the Airtran guys standard of living weather you agree with it or not.

In most SLI agreements both sides lose something.
In our case both sides gained something.
That is win-win.

A minority of Airtran guys agreed with you.
A majority agreed with me.
You and I can still disagree with this also.

 

[amt66]

And you call your self a unionist?

I would NEVER have you negotiate, nor represent me when you feel its ok to disadvantage one group over another, no wonder why you let the TWU screw the former TWA employees.

Twa didn't get screwed they made out like bandits! If AA wouldn't have bought them then they would have list everything! Yes they weren't dovetailed in but they still got more than they would have had they lost everything. AA also picked up their pensions so they didn't get screwed. It wasn't a merger but a buyout .

 

[700UW]

Funny if they didnt get screwed why did the US Congress pass a law to prevent what happened to the TWA employees in the future?

Why did the current President of the APFA come out and say it was wrong?