This airline could collapse.

[TheDog2004]

5th freedom rights are basically worthless. Delta discovered that it is far more profitable to fly direct to Europe from the United States than it is to have a European hub - which is why they eliminated the Frankfurt hub operation. The same is true for Latin America/Caribbean (which is why AA downsized San Juan IIRC) and Asia.

 

[aafsc]

Regarding buying/taking over the 5th freedom rights; how does that work? I know UA bought Pan Am's, but didn't they take on a bunch of employees and A/C as well? Was that an issue of meeting the requirements necessary, or one of operational needs? How would an acquisition (with regards to the "surviving" carrier) differ from LHR rights?

Thanks in advance.

UA took some flight attendants and about 400+ pilots with the purchase of the Pacific routes from Pan Am; I think (not sure) they took some ground people in HNL also.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Who says AA is in a position to buy anything?

mistified

======================================================

AA is THE ONLY us Airline in a position to buy something(along with WN, who does'nt buy anything)

Make NO mistake, after "missing the boat" on the PAA asian routes(UAL), AA will NEVER miss that (Asian) boat again !!!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's

 

[Kev3188]

Happy holidays, to you and your's !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's

Thank you very much! Same to you and yours!!

 

[RowUnderDCA]

I don't know why we're discussing this here, but I observe:

JAL joined oneworld, finally,

Fifth Freedom rights in Asia aren't all they're cracked up to be

 

[FWAAA]

I don't know why we're discussing this here, but I observe:

JAL joined oneworld, finally,

Fifth Freedom rights in Asia aren't all they're cracked up to be

I agree with you; I have posted several times in the past few months that the availability of longer-range aircraft would seem to lessen the value of an NRT hub. How many passengers really want to double connect (once in ORD or DFW or another USA hub and then again at NRT) if a nonstop is possible?

On the other hand, NW is currently running all (or nearly all) of its China frequencies from its NRT hub instead of nonstops from the USA. Maybe NW and UA have reached an unspoken gentlemen's agreement that UA will run the x-USA nonstops to China and that NW will run the NRT connections to China. Yes, I realize that such an agreement would be a violation of the antitrust laws if proven. So the other conclusion is that maybe there is some value in those 5th Freedom rights out of Japan.

 

[aafsc]

<_< Word to the wise, aa is not a white knight!!! So, be careful of what you wise for!!!! From someone who has been there!!!!

Given the fact that ex-TWA Inc. employees (those that retired from TWA BEFORE the asset purchase by AA) are getting retiree health insurance for $90 per month for one person under 65 from AA (got this information from another website frequented by TWA Inc. retirees) and the fact that you and all the others that came to work at AA (if only for a short time) were grandfathered into our plan, I would say AA IS a white knight to you people. You could have just as easily ended up like the employees and retirees of EAL, Pan AM, and Braniff; WITH NOTHING! In fact, I believe that the retirees of UA and US are paying more to their companies for retiree health care than the TWA Inc. retirees are paying to AA even though they did not work for AA one second whereas the UA and US people worked at their respective airlines for DECADES. It remains to be seen what will happen to the retirement medical plans at NW and DL.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

I agree with you; I have posted several times in the past few months that the availability of longer-range aircraft would seem to lessen the value of an NRT hub. How many passengers really want to double connect (once in ORD or DFW or another USA hub and then again at NRT) if a nonstop is possible?

On the other hand, NW is currently running all (or nearly all) of its China frequencies from its NRT hub instead of nonstops from the USA. Maybe NW and UA have reached an unspoken gentlemen's agreement that UA will run the x-USA nonstops to China and that NW will run the NRT connections to China. Yes, I realize that such an agreement would be a violation of the antitrust laws if proven. So the other conclusion is that maybe there is some value in those 5th Freedom rights out of Japan.

United is a member of Star that includes ANA. NWA is a member of skyteam which, I think, includes KAL, but no other Tokyo based carrier. NWA is the Tokyo-based SkyTeam member.

 

[MCI transplant]

Given the fact that ex-TWA Inc. employees (those that retired from TWA BEFORE the asset purchase by AA) are getting retiree health insurance for $90 per month for one person under 65 from AA (got this information from another website frequented by TWA Inc. retirees) and the fact that you and all the others that came to work at AA (if only for a short time) were grandfathered into our plan, I would say AA IS a white knight to you people. You could have just as easily ended up like the employees and retirees of EAL, Pan AM, and Braniff; WITH NOTHING! In fact, I believe that the retirees of UA and US are paying more to their companies for retiree health care than the TWA Inc. retirees are paying to AA even though they did not work for AA one second whereas the UA and US people worked at their respective airlines for DECADES. It remains to be seen what will happen to the retirement medical plans at NW and DL.

<_< I stand corrected. aa is totaly correct.A small percentage of former TWA employees will receive retirement benifits from aa!And those benifits start, one year after we were aquired! A vary small percentage!I fact the last group to be lay-off here were in the 15 to 20 year seniority group! Age-- early to middle 50's! The answeer to keeping exTWA employees from collecting those benifits, is to get reed of them before they're old enough to enjoy them!!! In the four and a half years since aa bought TWA,they have Layed-off over 80% of the employees, and severly restricted the seniority of those left! So if you want to call aa a White Knight, I supposed all that matters is what your definition of that is!!!!

 

[formeraa]

<_< I stand corrected. aa is totaly correct.A small percentage of former TWA employees will receive retirement benifits from aa!And those benifits start, one year after we were aquired! A vary small percentage!I fact the last group to be lay-off here were in the 15 to 20 year seniority group! Age-- early to middle 50's! The answeer to keeping exTWA employees from collecting those benifits, is to get reed of them before they're old enough to enjoy them!!! In the four and a half years since aa bought TWA,they have Layed-off over 80% of the employees, and severly restricted the seniority of those left! So if you want to call aa a White Knight, I supposed all that matters is what your definition of that is!!!!

Folks, we seem to forget that a small event called "9/11" happened after AA took over TW. Realistically, Carty would never have bought TW if he had forseen 9/11. This was not some AA mgmt conspiracy here. AA did, in fact, want to build up STL into a reliever hub and wanted to start additional service to Europe using TW's unused route authorities. It was a great plan until the tragic events of 9/11/2001.

 

[HGIEFOswitch]

Maybe TWA was the White Knight for AA. After all, if it wasn't for the 100 md80's and 25 b757's that instantly replaced AA's aging b727's and F100's, several thousand AA F/A's and Pilots would be on the street. Throw in a forgiven $50,000,000 APA debt to AMR (for illegal sickout), longevity pay for early 90's furloughs, and the majority of the acquisition costs reimbursed from the Worldspan equity sale, I'd say TWA was a pretty good deal.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< Listen people! I appologize! I don't want to turn this into a TWA/aa argument on your turf! So,at least,I won't!!! My point was I feel aa, at this time, wouldn't be interested in buying another Airline! Routes, Gates, etc, maybe! But that's only my opinon!!!Enough said!

 

[aafsc]

<_< I stand corrected. aa is totaly correct.A small percentage of former TWA employees will receive retirement benifits from aa!And those benifits start, one year after we were aquired! A vary small percentage!I fact the last group to be lay-off here were in the 15 to 20 year seniority group! Age-- early to middle 50's! The answeer to keeping exTWA employees from collecting those benifits, is to get reed of them before they're old enough to enjoy them!!! In the four and a half years since aa bought TWA,they have Layed-off over 80% of the employees, and severly restricted the seniority of those left! So if you want to call aa a White Knight, I supposed all that matters is what your definition of that is!!!!

I was speaking in terms of retiree healthcare. Do you think that a TWA Inc. retiree between 55-65 could find medical coverage for $90 a month for one person or $180 a month for two people anywhere else? Yes, AA was a whiteknight if only for medical coverage.

 

[Ch. 12]

Folks, we seem to forget that a small event called "9/11" happened after AA took over TW. Realistically, Carty would never have bought TW if he had forseen 9/11. This was not some AA mgmt conspiracy here. AA did, in fact, want to build up STL into a reliever hub and wanted to start additional service to Europe using TW's unused route authorities. It was a great plan until the tragic events of 9/11/2001.

This 9/11 "small event" is used as a scapegoat FAR more often than it should be given credit for. As far as impacting the airlines...9/11 just came at a bad time. The industry was already plunging to the ground and 9/11's contribution was minimal in the grand scheme of all factors involved (most rapid and well-funded new entrant expansion ever (B6), other LCC/new entrant expansion, INTERNET, crumbling economy, declining biz traffic, SARS, etc). Yes...9/11 DID have an impact and yes, it DID cause a further decline but weighing all factors...it was not 9/11 that should be blamed for all of this downsizing, scaling back, whatever you want to call it. It is unfortunate that it is the excuse used...but I guess it's far simpler to say 9/11 than to explain the complex myriad of items that truly are to blame for the collapse of the airline industry.

Back to TWA/AMR...even before 9/11 AA started to realize the complexities and additional expense of the TWA merger. This was one that looked great on paper but in reality was far more complex than could have been predicted. The fact that the acquisition came right at the beginning of the drastic industry slide is what led to the unforseen cutbacks. Did AMR management plan to actually scale back TWA staff and STL? We will never know for sure. All we can go on is their stated intentions and they wouldn't be stupid enough to state that they just wanted TWA for assets such as extensive international assets including leases, slots, and routes. Only Carty and a few other millionaires know the genuine intentions of the merger.

 

[LCC_#1]

This 9/11 "small event" is used as a scapegoat FAR more often than it should be given credit for. As far as impacting the airlines...9/11 just came at a bad time. The industry was already plunging to the ground and 9/11's contribution was minimal in the grand scheme of all factors involved (most rapid and well-funded new entrant expansion ever (B6), other LCC/new entrant expansion, INTERNET, crumbling economy, declining biz traffic, SARS, etc).

You are so correct. And as someone who lived in NYC that horrible day, it is insulting how the airlines used and abused what happened to get what they wanted. Are we at US the only ones that had force dejuer (sp?) crammed down our throats?

IF and I said IF I were big on conspiricies, I would swear the airlines planned it all.