Trouble in 777 Overhaul (China)

[737823]

Really? Do you pay property taxes? If by majority vote something passes do you still have to pay? Don't like it? Move right? But you still don't have the right to not pay. When you moved to where you live you knew that you had to pay taxes to have the streets cleaned, garbage picked up etc etc even if you didn't want those services, you wanted to live there so you pay. Well when you join a Unionized shop, you knew that you had to pay your fair share there as well. Don't want what the union provides, go to a non-union shop or try and have it decertified, those are your rights. RTW is a scam, that would be like saying you don't have to pay your property taxes unless you want to. Unions are put in place by a vote of the members, when they voted they knew that once in, the union remained unless there was a vote to get rid of them, similar to how once a group of residents vote to incorporate a town that town stays in place until the residents by majority vote decide to liquidate. After incorporating the people elect representatives to run it, same thing in a union, they make motions and the residents vote on the motions, same in unions. But if you as a resident decide that you don't want the town to be incorporated you cant say "I don't agree with this so I'm not paying, and by the way you still have to clean my street and pick up my garbage. RTW laws allow people to choose to get the benefits without contributing, it legalizes theft. Its no different than if they passed a law that says you are entitled to all the services without paying for them simply because you do not want to.

Of course, I not only pay property taxes and condo association fees too, as well as many, many other taxes. This is apples and oranges, Bob. I see your point that people vote on tax increases or bond issues for public schools for example and if the proposition passes, taxes increase even for those who didn't support the measure. Isn't the whole point of a union for people to be "united" with shared values, shared vision and shared priorities? Not every worker is on board with the union and see unions as overly political and some cases destructive organizations. The whole point of RTW is to respect peoples right to choose, if you want to join a union fine, but allow others to abstain from union membership if they so choose. And regarding free riding well isn't that what unions want? How many times have Trumka and other labor leaders said all workers should have the benefits and protections we do? With all this talk of business unionism from you, I've also been perlexed by the fact that unions spend so much of their own money in PACs to lobby for legislation that provides things normally obtained through the collective bargaining process like health care or workplace safety regulations. Another example, 700 often credits unions for things like 40 hour work week or restrictions on child labor, why would unions provide their resources and services for free when they can get away charging for them?

Josh

 

[xUT]

It's completely fair because the union is imposed on people who don't want it. Even if a majority of a workgroup elects to join a union, I believe people that wish to not join the union should not have the union and dues imposed (even partially as a dues objector). Right to work is fair and equatable for workers, it put the onus on the union to show it creates value for the workers.

Josh

You do realize that the biggest closed shop is the 'United States of America'.
B) xUT

 

[Bob Owens]

Personally, from the pilot point of view, I'd rather go with an open shop and let the union live or die on it's merits and leadership.

In 2003, APA slipped the closed shop change into the 2003 fire sale. You now had to be a member or pay a "contract maintenance fee" which is around 60% of normal dues.

At that time, it was the final act in a recent history of self serving BS leadership and many would have quit.

Before then, the APA pilots enjoyed the highest percentage of membership of any pilot union, even higher than those with closed shops.

If a union's leadership sucks, they should fear losing their senior desk jobs and risk dissolving their union. I feel this (open shop) should apply to any union in the USA. IMHO. I've got a ###d-on for right wingers that think unions should be hindered or outlawed by any means. I've also got the same ###d-on for union members that don't want to deal with their crappy performance and want immunity in every case.

rant over, now everyone drive home safely. 😉

Why not just remove the self serving officers? recall.

 

[Bob Owens]

Of course, I not only pay property taxes and condo association fees too, as well as many, many other taxes. This is apples and oranges, Bob. I see your point that people vote on tax increases or bond issues for public schools for example and if the proposition passes, taxes increase even for those who didn't support the measure. Isn't the whole point of a union for people to be "united" with shared values, shared vision and shared priorities? Not every worker is on board with the union and see unions as overly political and some cases destructive organizations. The whole point of RTW is to respect peoples right to choose, if you want to join a union fine, but allow others to abstain from union membership if they so choose. And regarding free riding well isn't that what unions want? How many times have Trumka and other labor leaders said all workers should have the benefits and protections we do? With all this talk of business unionism from you, I've also been perlexed by the fact that unions spend so much of their own money in PACs to lobby for legislation that provides things normally obtained through the collective bargaining process like health care or workplace safety regulations. Another example, 700 often credits unions for things like 40 hour work week or restrictions on child labor, why would unions provide their resources and services for free when they can get away charging for them?

Josh

Perhaps because "When justice is done, it is joy to the righteous."

OK, maybe thats only for Saturdays, but surely you can see the value for people who negotiate wages in legislation that limits hours and limits the number of people competing for work?

The point of RTW is to try and weaken Unions. Why not force businesses to provide their products for free and have people pay for them if they want to? If the product is worth paying for surely they will because if they don't it will disappear right?

 

[WorldTraveler]

I wonder how many people that champion RTW laws are aware of the racial underpinnings of their inception?

tell us, please

 

[eolesen]

Perhaps the racial underpinnings in RTW laws were really a reflection of the makeup of trade unions?...

http://www.redstate.com/laborunionreport/2011/04/10/unions-racism-an-age-old-institutional-problem-continues-unabated/

 

[737823]

Also worth pointing out the AFL wanted to restrict immigration of southern and Eastern Europeans as they were deemed a threat to union jobs. Of course, unions used to oppose illegal/undocumented immigration too only because undocumented workers are more difficult to organize.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

interesting perspective, Josh and E, and I want to hear Kevin's perspective but we need to tread very carefully on the subject.
Hispanics and Asians have below average rates of union representation.

The BLS says that blacks are slightly more likely TODAY to be union members than whites or other races... but what is most notable is that union membership is much larger among those over 55 and at a minimal rate for workers under 25.... that should be the most frightening statistic to the labor movement.

http://www.bls.gov/n.../pdf/union2.pdf

There are alot of facts this document and it is well worth anyone's time on here to read it.
Notably, transportation and utilities remain some of the highest unionized industries in the US.

 

[737823]

And it's also worth noting that much of the reason there are so few blacks in New England is the labor movement, the labor leaders mostly of Irish and Italian descent saw Blacks and other minorities as a threat to their organizations as they were willing to work harder for less money and in inferior working conditions. Look at the leadership of many unions in this area and the segregation of communities and its easy to see.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

Do you have data on union membership by race by state?

 

[737823]

Do you have data on union membership by race by state?

2011 data by state, some stats reltaed to race:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

that is the same document I linked but it doesn't have data divided by race within states. unless I am missing it.

My question is what is the racial makeup of unions overall, esp. in heavily unionized and historically ethnic states long New England and NY.

In light of the historical issues which you raised, I'd like to see current data.

 

[2ndGENAMT]

My neighbor and I pay the same rate for our sanitation, water, sewer and other municipal services.. I and my fellow TWU members pay the same rate for their services and yet I get less vacation, sick pay than a stock clerk and less holidays than those in the MCT class! RTW is a political Tool used by political TOOLS!!

 

[eolesen]

that is the same document I linked but it doesn't have data divided by race within states. unless I am missing it.

My question is what is the racial makeup of unions overall, esp. in heavily unionized and historically ethnic states long New England and NY.

In light of the historical issues which you raised, I'd like to see current data.

I haven't looked for it, but will see what I can dig up...

To be clear, the issue I was pointing to are trade & craft unions. When you get into civil service and industrial unions, I'd expect to see a wider diversity index. Trades and crafts? Eastern Europeans have been pretty well locked out of the contractor trades in Illinois. Mexicans have a far better chance just because Chicago in the top 10 Mexican cities in North America... so are NYC, SAT, HOU, and LAX.

 

[Kev3188]

I When you get into civil service and industrial unions, I'd expect to see a wider diversity index.

I would too, since for years those sorts of jobs served as one of the main paths to the middle class for many African- American families.