Trouble in 777 Overhaul (China)

[Kev3188]

That is not to say that union representation didn't have a significant effect in maintaining higher wage rates in the past but labor representation is not high at high enough rates today to have a meaningful impact in the US.

Still does; all the more so if you break it down by sector.

The fact that even in the airline industry there is no consistency in wage rates between unionized and unionized carriers for jobs like AMTs which is a well-defined and limited workgroup says that attempting to argue for the effect of unions is not valid any more.

W/O labor setting the "floor," there would certainly be consistency-especially at the ground level: everyone would be making $8.00/hr. as part of their "superior employment experience."

 

[WorldTraveler]

Let's cut to the point.

If labor was halfway as effective as you make it out to be, you wouldn't have to spend hours on here TRYING to justify their existence.

Nor would we be watching thousands of more jobs sent out of the US w/ no replacement.

We'd all like for the world to work the way it did when unions put fat salaries in lots of people's pockets and US consumers knew nothing of foreign manufacturers.

But that is not the world we live in now. Companies that adapt can survive and their employees will win regardless of the labor arrangement that exists.

Those that don't will continue to fail regardless of how much effort labor has put into that company.

Money pays the salaries of employees, not labor unions, and money is generated by businesses that create jobs. If the money isn't there, there is nothing that a labor union can do.

This forum might dry up and blow away out of unuse when you and others understand the basic principles of economics.

 

[Kev3188]

If labor was halfway as effective as you make it out to be, you wouldn't have to spend hours on here TRYING to justify their existence.

...And if you weren't so enamored with hearing yourself talk, you'd note that I've said it needs to be *more* effective than it has been in recent years.

if you don't like what I write, don't spend "hours" responding. Better yet, actually read what I and others write, so we don't keep rehashing the same things over and over in the same thread(s).

Nor would we be watching thousands of more jobs sent out of the US w/ no replacement.

Actually, there's some evidence that the flow is stemming somewhat, and that many jobs that were offshored are coming back. Certainly not in the numbers I'd like to see, but it's a start.

Money pays the salaries of employees, not labor unions, and money is generated by for businesses that create jobs through the efforts of their workers..

FIFY

This forum might dry up and blow away out of unuse when you and others understand the basic principles of economics.

I think the fact that I *do* understand them is rather vexing to you. I just have a different idea of how things should move going forward.

But hey; if it ever does dry up and blow away, you can always go over to another site like A.Net, right?

Thanks for participating.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Looks to me like you've beaten the keyboard quite a bit more than I have given that we joined this forum within 3 months of each others.

The same argument about hearing yourself could be applied to you too - only on a scale of about 10% more.

Returning to the topic...
"more" effective..... like an increase of 5% effective to 6% effective?

Whatever jobs growth you thought the US was seeing will undoubtedly evaporate now that ObamaCare is inevitable. Whatever political persuasion you have, ObamaCare will go down as the greatest killer of the middle class jobs w/ benefits that you so desperately want to see created - and so do I.

 

[eolesen]

Oh, please, you want to compare post counts as a measure of who beats the keyboard more?

I'm willing to bet you've worn out more keyboards than Kev or anyone else on the face of the earth WT...

Using lots of words doesn't always equate to clarity or effectiveness, though.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I've never worn out a keyboard.

No words don't necessarily translate to clarity or effectiveness

but I'll put my track record of accurately talking about a whole lot of subjects against a whole lot of people. Want me to start the list?

 

[737823]

W/O labor setting the "floor," there would certainly be consistency-especially at the ground level: everyone would be making $8.00/hr. as part of their "superior employment experience."

And if it means increasing their membership rolls (or preventing further erosion) the unions will be glad to help the carriers do it. It took you awhile to accept and admit that the IAM brought on ready reserve at HA-completely identical to DL-the IAM is helping with the Wal-Martization of airline careers before your very eyes. For all everyone decries the payscales and benefits the regionals offer, why don't some of the very same unions push for better pay and benefits for the regional workers? Why is it that you have the AFA representing mainline FAs at Alaska, USAir, United yet also representing regional FAs and other workers? Remember the whole debacle a few months back about Air Wisconsin and Piedmont/IAM and CWA? Again this is just another example how the workers are expendable to the unions all in the interest of dues. Anyone not see an agency problem here (conflict of interest) when you have a union with a duty to protect and enhance mainline jobs yet doing the same for regionals? To the IAM or CWA they are indifferent if their duespayer wears an AS, UA, US or regional uniform, it's still an expendable "customer".

Josh

 

[Bob Owens]

A good post and on track until you made this statement:



You do realize that there is no statistical correlation between the percent of union membership and average household income, don't you?

Alabama has one of the highest union representation ratios in the south and on par w/ many midwest states and yet their household income is one of the lowest.
Meanwhile, Georgia has higher household income than several midwest states yet is in the lowest percentage group of union representation.

Note also that the cost of living in the south is less than in the midwest and NE and in most states, the lower cost of living more than offsets lower wage rates. Tax rates in the South are also lower.

It is not accurate to say that unions have resulted in a higher current standard of living in more heavily unionized state and it is certainly not accurate to say that lower union representation rates have resulted in lower real standards of living.

Note also that the largest drops in income have been in the most heavily unionized states in the midwest, NE, and CA.

Hmm, but from looking at the map there is a correlation between lower incomes and RTW. Compare the RTW states to the states without RTW and clearly the RTW states have lower average incomes. So RTW is pretty effective at lowering wages, even if they have a fairly high rate of unionization, like Alabama.

As far as the drop, well if you are already on the floor you don't have far to fall.

 

[737823]

Hmm, but from looking at the map ther is a correlation between lower incomes and RTW. Compare the RTW states to the states without RTW and clearly the RTW states have lower average incomes. So RTW is pretty effective at lowering wages, even if they have a fairly high rate of unionization, like Alabama.

As far as the drop, well if you are already on the floor you don't have far to fall.

See my response:

You guys can keep saying that workers in non-RTW states have higher earnings on average and that is true. However, correlation does not equal causality. You have to consider the fact that there are different industries in California or New Jersey compared to Mississippi or Tennessee. It shouldn't come at a surprise that earnings differentials exist, for this reason, different demographics, different cost of living index and different economic conditions. To do an accurate and comprehensive study you would need to identify several control factors such as comparing similar industries in states with similar economic conditions, and then conduct a differences in differences comparison on earnings. Much like RTW proponents tout that RTW states have lower unemployment statistics, it's equally unscientific to cite higher median incomes, lower poverty rates, etc in non-RTW states. Go to NBER.org, there is plenty of research on this topic and see for yourself.

Josh

Josh

 

[Bob Owens]

See my response:



Josh

Ok, then compare what Unionized Nurses make in NY compared to what non-Union Nurses make in Missippi.

When unions function properly they usually earn more than their non-union counterparts. Obviously something has gone awry for mechanics at American Airlines.

 

[Kev3188]

Looks to me like you've beaten the keyboard quite a bit more than I have given that we joined this forum within 3 months of each others.

The same argument about hearing yourself could be applied to you too - only on a scale of about 10% more.

Meh.

Returning to the topic...
"more" effective..... like an increase of 5% effective to 6% effective?

Sounds good. The topic is "Trouble in 777 Overhaul (China)."

So is 5-6% related to wages in China vs. HKG? Referencing a percentage of overall OH outsourcing? How much of AA's system traffic the 777 flies? Help us out here.

And if it means increasing their membership rolls (or preventing further erosion) the unions will be glad to help the carriers do it. It took you awhile to accept and admit that the IAM brought on ready reserve at HA-completely identical to DL-the IAM is helping with the Wal-Martization of airline careers before your very eyes.

I'm not sure if you keep expecting me to defend that CBA language or not. I've assumed you understood where I stand on that?

As far as the drop, well if you are already on the floor you don't have far to fall.

Indeed.

 

[chris perry]

Outsourcing to Hong Kong makes no sense other than pure greed,it was started by greed and will continue.It certainly don't help the country only the high rollers.All the payroll taxes gone,workers gone,skills lost pissed in the wind,and the list goes on.Tell me how it benefits the USA? How has all the restructured Airlines Outsourcing helped America?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Foreign outsourcing serves to reduce the size of AA's workforce to what can fit within one major overhaul facility.

As much as some people struggle to accept it, AA is outsourcing without insourcing because it wants to reduce the number of unionized workers to the lowest numbers possible.

AA could very well have used its facilities and workforce to insource work just as its competitor does about 800 miles east on I-20 but AA wants to gain as much leverage in depressing wage rates by laying off as many workers as possible.

And unions have been ineffective - ok maybe 5% effective - in stemming the loss of airline jobs to lower source suppliers which pushes down the demand for workers and thus depresses wages. Pushing work to regional airlines cuts costs but doesn't necessarily eliminate union jobs. Shipping jobs out of the US eliminates the possibility of US unions have any influence or gain.

Sad but true.

 

[737823]

Ok, then compare what Unionized Nurses make in NY compared to what non-Union Nurses make in Missippi.

No Bob, that would be an example of a poorly designed study. An effective and well designed study would have both a treatment (RTW state) and a control (non-RTW state group) for the same occupation, same union/non-union status, in states with similar economic conditions. Obviously nurses in the greater New York area make more than in Mississippi, union or non-union.

A well designed study would be something like union carpenters in Kansas City, KS (RTW) and union carpenters in Kansas City, MO (non-RTW). Same profession, same union status, similar economic environment. And you would collect data over a series of months and also compare employment levels. Another example would be to take non-union technicians in Iowa (RTW) and compare them to Minnesota (non-RTW).

A famous study, David Card and Alan Krueger of Princeton compared wages and employment levels of fast food workers in Philadelphia PA/Southern NJ area. They studied the effect of an increase in the NJ minimum wage and used PA as the control group.

On April 1, 1992 New Jersey's minimum wage increased from $4.25 to $5.05 per hour. To evaluate the impact of the law we surveyed 410 fast food restaurants in New Jersey and Pennsylvania before and after the rise in the minimum. Comparisons of the changes in wages, employment, and prices at stores in New Jersey relative to stores in Pennsylvania (where the minimum wage remained fixed at $4.25 per hour) yield simple estimates of the effect of the higher minimum wage. Our empirical findings challenge the prediction that a rise in the minimum reduces employment. Relative to stores in Pennsylvania, fast food restaurants in New Jersey increased employment by 13 percent. We also compare employment growth at stores in New Jersey that were initially paying high wages (and were unaffected by the new law) to employment changes at lower-wage stores. Stores that were unaffected by the minimum wage had the same employment growth as stores in Pennsylvania, while stores that had to increase their wages increased their employment.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w4509

When unions function properly they usually earn more than their non-union counterparts. Obviously something has gone awry for mechanics at American Airlines.

That's TWU representation at work.

Josh

 

[737823]

I'm not sure if you keep expecting me to defend that CBA language or not. I've assumed you understood where I stand on that?

I was just using it as segway to my question above-why do the same unions represent M/L workers and regional workers too? CWA represents M/L passenger services agents at US but also represents them at US Express. AFA represents mainline FAs at AS, UA, US but also represents FAs at regionals serving those very same carriers-Air Wisconsin, Horizon, Piedmont, Mesa, etc. My point is its an agency problem (conflict of interest) since the union represents both mainline and regional workers. The union should work to protect and advance the wages, benefits and job protection of the M/L workers foremost. This is conflict with the regional workers. The unions are less likely to oppose outsoucring if they will still collect dues irrespective of if its the higher paid M/L employees or regional employees. It just doesn't seem the union can work to advance both of their interests, and in the event of outsourcing the members are expendable since the regional (outsoucred) workers still pay union dues.

Josh