Tulsa To The Rescue..... BUT WHY?

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

For all the Fleet Service haters out there let me ask you this.

How much money would you want to:

Work a job where you have knee, shoulder, hip, and back problems for the rest of your life from throwing heavy bags?

Work in heat, cold, rain, sleet, snow, and ice?

Work every holiday, every weekend, and be stuck in part time for years on end? (We had someone bump in
TULE who had 22 years in and was the BOTTOM PART TIMER). By the time you
get weekends and holidays off (if ever) your kids are grown and your an old man. You sacrifice your family life.

I think $21.16 is awfully damn cheap to ask a man (or woman) to sacrifice his health, work odd hours most if not all of his career, and sacrifice his family/social life. What is that worth to you?

It seems your more interested in tearing us down than building yourselves up.

Let me say this. Mechanics are a component of a whole. We all have a part to play in the business. I agree your A&P should earn you a higher wage. That does not mean that Fleet Service should work for a non living wage.

Your 18 month A&P does not make you special. It does not make you irreplaceable (OSM's proved that). So let's all try to get along shall we?

We have been down this road before. We know where it leads. Remember who the true enemy is (AA/TWU).

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

The truth is none of us will ever have any REAL bargaining power until the TWU is out of the picture. We will never have any real power as long as we all have separate contracts. I have said it once and I will say it again. WE NEED A UNION WE CAN CONTROL.

A house divided against itself can not stand.

STOP BEING SHEEPLE.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

TWU = CONTROL

 

[Bob Owens]

dup

 

[Bob Owens]

For all the Fleet Service haters out there let me ask you this.

How much money would you want to:

Work a job where you have knee, shoulder, hip, and back problems for the rest of your life from throwing heavy bags?

Work in heat, cold, rain, sleet, snow, and ice?

Work every holiday, every weekend, and be stuck in part time for years on end? (We had someone bump in
TULE who had 22 years in and was the BOTTOM PART TIMER). By the time you
get weekends and holidays off (if ever) your kids are grown and your an old man. You sacrifice your family life.

I think $21.16 is awfully damn cheap to ask a man (or woman) to sacrifice his health, work odd hours most if not all of his career, and sacrifice his family/social life. What is that worth to you?

It seems your more interested in tearing us down than building yourselves up.

Let me say this. Mechanics are a component of a whole. We all have a part to play in the business. I agree your A&P should earn you a higher wage. That does not mean that Fleet Service should work for a non living wage.

Your 18 month A&P does not make you special. It does not make you irreplaceable (OSM's proved that). So let's all try to get along shall we?

We have been down this road before. We know where it leads. Remember who the true enemy is (AA/TWU).

I agree. The FSC job should be compared to a Longshormans. They use their backs and equipment to load Sea faring Ships you use yours to load Air ships. The work is hard, dangerous, unrecognized and you guys are underpaid in comparasion. The question here at the moment is we are in BK, where do you stand within the Industry and what are you prepared to do to fight what the company is trying to do in BK? Should you lower wages to keep jobs that competitors outsourced? Which in turn would drive competitors to seek more concessions from their FSCs and the downward cycle continues. Or, should the TWU allow the outsourcing then try and organize the shops that pick up the work?

The odds are that if the company asks for abrogation they will get it, trying to keep the jobs in house that others outsource is a slam dunk for abrogation. look at one of the pivotal BK cases where the printer sought to abrogate a contract that required that he keep typsetters on the job. Any deal that requires a company to keep workers that competitors dont have to keep will be abrogated. If the wages and everything else are industry standard then the arguement becomes "if you have everything your competitors have then the reason you cant compete lies with how you manage it".

You are absolutely correct that mechanics should not tear down other workers and say they should make less. Its diminishes us all. They negotiated what they got, we negotiated what we got.

 

[JABORD]

For all the Fleet Service haters out there let me ask you this.

How much money would you want to:

Work a job where you have knee, shoulder, hip, and back problems for the rest of your life from throwing heavy bags?

Work in heat, cold, rain, sleet, snow, and ice?

Work every holiday, every weekend, and be stuck in part time for years on end? (We had someone bump in
TULE who had 22 years in and was the BOTTOM PART TIMER). By the time you
get weekends and holidays off (if ever) your kids are grown and your an old man. You sacrifice your family life.

I think $21.16 is awfully damn cheap to ask a man (or woman) to sacrifice his health, work odd hours most if not all of his career, and sacrifice his family/social life. What is that worth to you?

It seems your more interested in tearing us down than building yourselves up.

Let me say this. Mechanics are a component of a whole. We all have a part to play in the business. I agree your A&P should earn you a higher wage. That does not mean that Fleet Service should work for a non living wage.

Your 18 month A&P does not make you special. It does not make you irreplaceable (OSM's proved that). So let's all try to get along shall we?

We have been down this road before. We know where it leads. Remember who the true enemy is (AA/TWU).

Hey ee -i-ee-i-oh, I needn't go toe to toe with you for you to see that mechanics make many of those sacrifices that you #### about. But let me see if you can wrap your un -skilled peanut head around this. There are certain job types in any industry that is meant not to be a career but a step off point toward pursuing a sound and more rewarding future."Building ourselves up "is exactly what we did when we invested in ourselves and obtained our A&P tickets. "18 month A&P doesn't make me special "?Damn right it does! Educate yourself on the liability we carry when we're required to put our signature to all the work we perform.Don't see any OSM threatening me here at ORD but who knows, maybe I'll have TUL to thank for that in the future.

 

[Bob Owens]

Hey ee -i-ee-i-oh, I needn't go toe to toe with you for you to see that mechanics make many of those sacrifices that you #### about. But let me see if you can wrap your un -skilled peanut head around this. There are certain job types in any industry that is meant not to be a career but a step off point toward pursuing a sound and more rewarding future."Building ourselves up "is exactly what we did when we invested in ourselves and obtained our A&P tickets. "18 month A&P doesn't make me special "?Damn right it does! Educate yourself on the liability we carry when we're required to put our signature to all the work we perform.Don't see any OSM threatening me here at ORD but who knows, maybe I'll have TUL to thank for that in the future.

Our failure to negotiate and demand a fair wage has nothing to do with FSC's. At the end of the day it was mechanics that voted Yes for the deals we got, regardless of who had control over negotiations. Like I said, Vote No, however many times it takes.

If you want to believe the lies about Pies and all that other BS thats been put in front of us by both the Union and the Company thats your problem. not the FSCs. They are not our enemy, they could be an ally. If you actually believe that if the company could cut their wage it would mean more money for you then although you may be skilled you are gullible. Whatever they save from one group goes to the company, Not the Pilots, not the FAs and certainly not the FSCs. It goes to them, they will spend it, if they have all the new planes they need they will refurbish HDQ, sponsor another Stadium , pay dividends on their stock, anything but give it to any work group.

If you do end up with OSMs in ORD it will be our fellow mechanics who despite our skills. liability and tickets did not have the nads to Vote NO or fight the company as long as they got their CS's approved, that let it happen, not the FSCs. Promoting the Profession is fine, tearing down another group is unprofessional IMO.

 

[JABORD]

Our failure to negotiate and demand a fair wage has nothing to do with FSC's. At the end of the day it was mechanics that voted Yes for the deals we got, regardless of who had control over negotiations. Like I said, Vote No, however many times it takes.

If you want to believe the lies about Pies and all that other BS thats been put in front of us by both the Union and the Company thats your problem. not the FSCs. They are not our enemy, they could be an ally. If you actually believe that if the company could cut their wage it would mean more money for you then although you may be skilled you are gullible. Whatever they save from one group goes to the company, Not the Pilots, not the FAs and certainly not the FSCs. It goes to them, they will spend it, if they have all the new planes they need they will refurbish HDQ, sponsor another Stadium , pay dividends on their stock, anything but give it to any work group.

If you do end up with OSMs in ORD it will be our fellow mechanics who despite our skills. liability and tickets did not have the nads to Vote NO or fight the company as long as they got their CS's approved that let it happen, not the FSCs.

Don't misunderstand my post Bob. I'm not advocating to take anything from fleet. I am thankful that hiring into fleet back in late 80's provided me foot in the door with AA. But that's what fleet is, a foot in the door. Less than 2 years later I moved on to what should still be a job of integrity. And yes, I agree that my BROTHERS at TUL that voted yes to anything Birdsh*t and others put in front of them are the ones to thank for the OSM threat, not ramp. What I will continue to advocate is "Mechanics Representing Mechanics ". Thanks Bob.

 

[Bob Owens]

Don't misunderstand my post Bob. I'm not advocating to take anything from fleet. I am thankful that hiring into fleet back in late 80's provided me foot in the door with AA. But that's what fleet is, a foot in the door. Less than 2 years later I moved on to what should still be a job of integrity. And yes, I agree that my BROTHERS at TUL that voted yes to anything Birdsh*t and others put in front of them are the ones to thank for the OSM threat, not ramp. What I will continue to advocate is "Mechanics Representing Mechanics ". Thanks Bob.

Was this necessary?

But let me see if you can wrap your un -skilled peanut head around this.There are certain job types in any industry that is meant not to be a career but a step off point toward pursuing a sound and more rewarding future

The first part is purely insulting and antagonistic, the second is your opinion, you made your choice and acted on it.

In my 32 years I've never had a FSC come up and tell me that I should work for less so others could have more, never had one tell me I should work for less so others can keep their jobs, however People like Overspeed and the guy you guys just recently voted out, both mechanics, have.

Dont be too quick to blame our brothers in Tulsa either, how did ORD vote?

I earned my "foot in the door" by working for fly by night carriers with minimal equipment and no hangars for five years, others did stints in the Military, should we look down on you? Why is it that I see this type of hostility more prominent in guys who started in fleet at AA? I understand you made an investment but why attack them?

Integrity-adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

Does calling someone an "unskilled peanut head" sound as if it came from someone posessing Integrity? An apology would.

 

[Vortilon]

For all the Fleet Service haters out there let me ask you this.

How much money would you want to:

Work a job where you have knee, shoulder, hip, and back problems for the rest of your life from throwing heavy bags?

Work in heat, cold, rain, sleet, snow, and ice?

Work every holiday, every weekend, and be stuck in part time for years on end? (We had someone bump in
TULE who had 22 years in and was the BOTTOM PART TIMER). By the time you
get weekends and holidays off (if ever) your kids are grown and your an old man. You sacrifice your family life.

I think $21.16 is awfully damn cheap to ask a man (or woman) to sacrifice his health, work odd hours most if not all of his career, and sacrifice his family/social life. What is that worth to you?

It seems your more interested in tearing us down than building yourselves up.

Let me say this. Mechanics are a component of a whole. We all have a part to play in the business. I agree your A&P should earn you a higher wage. That does not mean that Fleet Service should work for a non living wage.

Your 18 month A&P does not make you special. It does not make you irreplaceable (OSM's proved that). So let's all try to get along shall we?

We have been down this road before. We know where it leads. Remember who the true enemy is (AA/TWU).

How do you feel about Dispatch. 12 weeks of night school, a simple test, a few months of OJT, and $45.00ph? Did you see the ask for Jim Little's homies? The company is going to give them a savings value of almost $160k for when a dispatcher is going to retire. If the dispatcher gives at least 1 year notice. Cause it's so hard to replace them.

 

[Bob Owens]

How do you feel about Dispatch. 12 weeks of night school, a simple test, a few months of OJT, and $45.00ph? Did you see the ask for Jim Little's homies? The company is going to give them a savings value of almost $160k for when a dispatcher is going to retire. If the dispatcher gives at least 1 year notice. Cause it's so hard to replace them.

Thats whats known as leverage. They can not legally outsource the work, limited supply even though the barriers to entry are lower than an A&P, and as a group they have more balls than we do, thats how they got to $45'hr. They opened negotiations back in 2006, why did we wait till 2008?

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Hey ee -i-ee-i-oh, I needn't go toe to toe with you for you to see that mechanics make many of those sacrifices that you #### about.

JABORD (notice how I used your name) this was not about who makes what sacrifices. I asked what you would expect in return to give up those things in your life.

But let me see if you can wrap your un -skilled peanut head around this.

Don't assume that because I do unskilled work I am unskilled. I happen to be a tradesman. Many people in my
shop have trades and many have A&P's.

There are certain job types in any industry that is (I think you meant are) meant not to be a career but a step off point toward pursuing a sound and more rewarding future.

If fleet is not meant to be a career why do we have people with 1960's seniority?

"Building ourselves up "is exactly what we did when we invested in ourselves and obtained our A&P tickets. "18 month A&P doesn't make me special "?Damn right it does!

No, it does not. I put in WAY more school than "18 months" I assure you and I most certainly do not feel special. When I get laid off I will go through 2 more years of "building myself up" five days a week three hours a day.

Educate yourself on the liability we carry when we're required to put our signature to all the work we perform.

YOUR telling ME to educate myself about the liability you carry. Your the one that needs an education. I WORK AT THE MAINTENANCE BASE. I work side by side with mechanics every day. Trust me. I am aware.

Don't see any OSM threatening me here at ORD but who knows, maybe I'll have TUL to thank for that in the future.

I am sure you will not be replaced by an OSM. However, your work could be contracted out just like anyones. Though I hope that does not happen.

I am sure in this liberal world we live in you grew up with everyone telling you that your special. They lied. Your not. I will admit your underpaid. I will also admit your schooling should pay off. Do you really think if I took a pay cut you would make more? Do you really believe that Mechanics being in the same UNION as Fleet weakens them. How could it when we all have separate contracts? The fact is we both belong to a company "bought" UNION.

Who are you to tell me how much I should make anyway?

 

[Buck]

FSC's should make what they can negotiate, just like mechanics.

When the company cones to the TWU with the proverbial pie. Under Industrial Unionism each classification should receive their equal portion. Most recently and on the surface, the M&R group has negotiated lower pay and a.modified sick schedule.

The question now is how do the TWU negotiators fight for any given group. If there are Fleet Service negotiators that have any input over the negotiations as a whole, how can the mechanics gain any advantage if there are trade offs between the union and the company?

It would seem that the ability to to negotiate for M&R completely clear of any dialogue concerning Fleet Service., would the next evolutionary step.

 

[JABORD]

Was this necessary?
Bob, absolutely. I believe my response was well presented and am sure many of my brothers agree. If you disagree with what I said or feel my observations are wrong, help me understand.


The first part is purely insulting and antagonistic, the second is your opinion, you made your choice and acted on it.

In my 32 years I've never had a FSC come up and tell me that I should work for less so others could have more, never had one tell me I should work for less so others can keep their jobs, however People like Overspeed and the guy you guys just recently voted out, both mechanics, have.

Dont be too quick to blame our brothers in Tulsa either, how did ORD vote?

I earned my "foot in the door" by working for fly by night carriers with minimal equipment and no hangars for five years, others did stints in the Military, should we look down on you? Why is it that I see this type of hostility more prominent in guys who started in fleet at AA? I understand you made an investment but why attack them?

Integrity-adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

Does calling someone an "unskilled peanut head" sound as if it came from someone posessing Integrity? An apology would.

I'm unsure way you keep mentioning 'take from fleet '. I've never supported that. Regarding ORD t/a vote, no I can't justify the yes voters other than too many who won't make any effort to get involved and wait to be spoon-fed their info. This combined with guarded information releases has led to success in previous TWU strategy. As you've alluded to, yes, our previous prez has now found out how much we are willing to allow those monkey shines to continue.

No doubt we've all experienced different levels of challenges until our goal of major carrier mechanic took root. I myself hustled side jobs to keep $$ coming in for my wife and two kids when I first set my sites on A&P and prior to AA. And no, guys that earned their experience requirements working General or Military shouldn't have a bad opinion of me any more than my time as a junior mechanic being paid $5/hr less than my new hire vets and being expected to help get them up to speed.

On your TUL comment, I am referring to TUL past practices and apparently current also (vanloads racing south), where I will continue to lob blame for our current degradation. So yea Bob, we've all got our stories to tell but still look forward to when we can finally be taught what it means to be a real union member, both engaged in the advancement of our craft And compassionate toward other members plight. Mechanics representing Mechanics.

 

[JABORD]

I am sure in this liberal world we live in you grew up with everyone telling you that your special. They lied. Your not. I will admit your underpaid. I will also admit your schooling should pay off. Do you really think if I took a pay cut you would make more? Do you really believe that Mechanics being in the same UNION as Fleet weakens them. How could it when we all have separate contracts? The fact is we both belong to a company "bought" UNION.

Who are you to tell me how much I should make anyway?

Hey pal, the ee-i-ee-i and peanut thing was out of line. I apologize.

Your post gave the impression that your a FSC. To whine about working conditions to a mechanic is a little misguided and you won't get much sympathy from us. I'll say it again, ramp should be a stepping stone to pursue a better quality of life after. Talk about misguided, a FSC that boasts 1960 something seniority really should set his bar a little higher. Just an opinion.

Unsure why you want to put words in my mouth, never said we should take $$ from you. But I gotta tell ya, my Mom was a saint and she always told me I was special. Don't have any reason to doubt her.