Tulsa To The Rescue..... BUT WHY?

[OldGuy@AA]

I have heard right from one local title 1 president involved in this previous round of negotiations. When he went over to the fleet service group of negotiators to ask them what their strategy was, and what kind of supporting documentation they had etc.. They simply responded "we are just going to (me too) what ever the mechanics get".

Most of us are tired of the secrecy involved, like Strikeforce pointed out earlier. That 2003 contract is a perfect example of the AMT's taking the brunt of the pain - most courtesy of the TWU trading away mechanics pay and benefits to maintain dues payers headcount.

Last time I checked our fleet service clerks were among the highest paid in the industry. Meanwhile the AMT's are at the bottom in pay and benefits. Why is that?

Since the FS and Stores groups base their pay demands during negotiations on our wage scale, maybe we should base ours on the pilots. Maybe we've been going about it all wrong?

 

[Buck]

Since the FS and Stores groups base their pay demands during negotiations on our wage scale, maybe we should base ours on the pilots. Maybe we've been going about it all wrong?

I don't quite understand. First you are questioning on something you know nothing about. (Top Wages) and secondly your lack of faith in the representatives you pay to negotiate for you. Next thing you know you will be attempting to replace your representative.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I don't quite understand. First you are questioning on something you know nothing about. (Top Wages) and secondly your lack of faith in the representatives you pay to negotiate for you. Next thing you know you will be attempting to replace your representative.

Ah Buck, you are correct. I know nothing about top wages because I work for AA (haha). As far as faith in our representatives, I think that on the local level, for the most part, the people we have in 514 do their best for us and try really hard. The problem is at the international level where there is no accountability.

 

[Buck]

Ah Buck, you are correct. I know nothing about top wages because I work for AA (haha). As far as faith in our representatives, I think that on the local level, for the most part, the people we have in 514 do their best for us and try really hard. The problem is at the international level where there is no accountability.

That may be. But is have yet to see any local 514 leaders attempt to change the international. I know the constitution prevents this. But from what I hear the local at AFW basically told the international to shove it.

 

[Zom JFK]

I knew this was going to come up on these forums sooner or later, the old Mechanic is underpaid and Fleet Service is overpaid argument. Well I agree with Bob Owens on this one. Hell I agree with Bob on 99% of what he says.

 

[AANOTOK]

I knew this was going to come up on these forums sooner or later, the old Mechanic is underpaid and Fleet Service is overpaid argument. Well I agree with Bob Owens on this one. Hell I agree with Bob on 99% of what he says.

I've heard it since '83. Heck, we're even the pilots whipping boys from time to time. It's all good!

 

[lineguy43]

Even though ramp might have been in the same union, they had nothing to do with maintenance and their CBA.

Thats what most people dont realize.

Look at EAL, Ramp, and Maintenance in the IAM and they shut it down, how did that work out with AMFA being all on its own at NW?

Partly correct. We had the same book when I hired on in 1988. Then later the ramp and stores had a black book and we had blue and the agents had their book as well. But makes no difference..Our books all became amendable the same time and I stand by my statement that when I first became a mechanic I made less than an ESC until my 5th yr. Then only chump change over an ESC. Then in 1993 NW came after us for concessions we voted no but the iam kept bringing back the vote til it finally passed. Then the execs gave themselves huge bonuses for ramming that down our throat. We had preferred stock the iam negotiated for us (the pilots went with common stock) so we got our stock that had a 10 yr maturation period...well like a chump I held on to my stock thinking I had a guaranteed put price on our stock...Well 10 yrs later when the stock became payable to us at the put price of 44 dollars a share NW incorporated in Delaware a corporate friendly state a judge says "nah you dont have to pay them" So got screwed out of that deal. But rewind back to 1998 in the best of times for the airline the iam brought back an abysmal contract we were at 40 dollars a month per yr of service for retirement they brought back 60 dollars a month that was after a whole lot of years with no change and that was just the surface..That contract is what finally forced us to toss out the iam..In our very first contract with AMFA we got 85 dollars in retirement and I got a 13 dollar an hr raise. Kind of gives credence to the argument that ramp was riding our coattails and the iam and their socialist views thinks everyone should make the same. Ok so NW took a lot of money to invest in busting our union because they were too militant and wouldn't be a company lapdog like the iam and twu are. Fine I am non-union now and make great money and do not miss being in an industrial union. Oh and at EAL it was the pilots that shut the airline down the strength in numbers crap is just that.

 

[lineguy43]

duplicate

 

[strikeforce]

Hmm, on the one hand we have Overspeed saying that I'm responsible for the NO vote then we have you saying I'm to blame for bringing the thing back. You two are more alike than you realize.




Get your peers in ORD to vote No or at least turn down some OT and maybe I could, Oh yea, thats right, you walked away from actually doing something.

problem is Bob, nobody knows what goes on in negotiations......remember, it's a secret society.......a society of people signing confidentiality agreements. Therefore, I have to lump you in with the other stooges. I value your input to this forum, but you're complaining the amt's at AA are at the bottom of the industry, yet have unable to convince your peers of maintenance presidents to enhance the profession. spend more time trying to convince those directly responsible for our demise, instead of preaching to the choir. I know I'm at the bottom, and so do most on this forum. But, you can do something about it because you're right there at the table, and you haven't been able to do sh&t.

We turned down ot and field trips.....too bad WE were undercut by our own IGM brothers at other stations.

I actually did something you won't do, and that's resign from a corrupt organization full of IGM, not only at the membership level, but local level and international level. I know the inner workings of the TWU, and that's why I try and expose the non-sense. I'm not ashamed of quitting. I'm actually glad I did. and, it doesn't bother me that you and others call me a quitter. I can take my lumps. I can also dish it out.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I think we are getting a little of track. The purpose of the post was to show why we are in the trouble we are in. We have sent a message to management.

The message is:

"You can do whatever you want and we will still deliver. There is no consequence for cheating us."

You prove to the company that you have no self worth for your profession when you let them cheat you with little or no consequences.

They are robbing the bank and we fixed their getaway car.

You keep saying the government should fix this, the UNION should fix that. How about a little self help by not doing stupid?

Union members keep depending on others to fix things. How is that working out for us so far?

The TWU = Control. I am sure that is not how it started out but, that's what it is today. The TWU is there to keep you in this passive state your in. The TWU is there to keep you dependent on a UNION that will never deliver. You want to save your profession? Get the TWU out. Don't go with AMP or AMFA. It is the same trap. We need a union with OUR employees running it. Not some untouchables in international that are prone to payoffs.

I find it offensive that people attack Bob Owens because they are unhappy with the UNION then go bail AMR out with field trips to DFW.

You see how stupid this is right?

SELF HELP

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I think we are getting a little of track. The purpose of the post was to show why we are in the trouble we are in. We have sent a message to management.

The message is:

"You can do whatever you want and we will still deliver. There is no consequence for cheating us."

You prove to the company that you have no self worth for your profession when you let them cheat you with little or no consequences.

They are robbing the bank and we fixed their getaway car.

You keep saying the government should fix this, the UNION should fix that. How about a little self help by not doing stupid?

Union members keep depending on others to fix things. How is that working out for us so far?

The TWU = Control. I am sure that is not how it started out but, that's what it is today. The TWU is there to keep you in this passive state your in. The TWU is there to keep you dependent on a UNION that will never deliver. You want to save your profession? Get the TWU out. Don't go with AMP or AMFA. It is the same trap. We need a union with OUR employees running it. Not some untouchables in international that are prone to payoffs.

I find it offensive that people attack Bob Owens because they are unhappy with the UNION then go bail AMR out with field trips to DFW.

You see how stupid this is right?

SELF HELP

Great post! I agree with everything you said except for AMP will be our employees running the show. Everyone will be accountable to the membership. And you are right on the money about Mr. Owens. He is the one in the trenches that is fighting the international on a daily basis. I am glad he is one of us.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I knew this was going to come up on these forums sooner or later, the old Mechanic is underpaid and Fleet Service is overpaid argument. Well I agree with Bob Owens on this one. Hell I agree with Bob on 99% of what he says.

My apologies if I offended you. I only meant to point out the fact that AMTs know what our peers wages and benefits are throughout the industry. We don't ask the TWU to make sure we make a certain percentage more than FS or SC. But this is for another topic and has nothing to do with this one. Sorry

 

[Buck]

I think we are getting a little of track. The purpose of the post was to show why we are in the trouble we are in. We have sent a message to management.

The message is:

"You can do whatever you want and we will still deliver. There is no consequence for cheating us."

You prove to the company that you have no self worth for your profession when you let them cheat you with little or no consequences.

They are robbing the bank and we fixed their getaway car.

You keep saying the government should fix this, the UNION should fix that. How about a little self help by not doing stupid?

Union members keep depending on others to fix things. How is that working out for us so far?

The TWU = Control. I am sure that is not how it started out but, that's what it is today. The TWU is there to keep you in this passive state your in. The TWU is there to keep you dependent on a UNION that will never deliver. You want to save your profession? Get the TWU out. Don't go with AMP or AMFA. It is the same trap. We need a union with OUR employees running it. Not some untouchables in international that are prone to payoffs.

I find it offensive that people attack Bob Owens because they are unhappy with the UNION then go bail AMR out with field trips to DFW.

You see how stupid this is right?

SELF HELP

I have to disagree with you. We showed our hand along time ago and continually do so at every occasion.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

If what you say about Bob Owens is true (I will assume it is since I personally do not know the man) maybe he should be our NEW UNION president.

The problem with AMP is it's preexisting therefore not accountable to AMR employees specifically. I think we should consider a UNION of ONLY AMR employees. I am for a multi membership type UNION not just the mechanics. I understand why you as a mechanic might prefer this, however, it would be more strategic to control all the parts of the airline business we can. These multiple contracts are part of our problem.

I understand many Mechanics feel this would result in a robbing Peter to pay Paul scenario. I believe contract language can solve this problem. For instance we could do an across the board minimum percentage (as in we demand a 5 percent minimum cost of living raise per contract for instance), any percentage over that would reflect supply and demand (which would work to your favor more than FSC's because we do not require a license). Another way we could do it is a multiplier (Any job requiring a license makes 2X what unskilled labor makes example FSC 21.16 A&P 42.32 ). Another way to attack the problem is license premiums.

It would be difficult at best to flourish controlling only one part of the business. It would also make you more prone to being farmed out.

Bob may be the perfect choice to lead us in a NEW UNION. We need experienced people after all.

We need to get rid of these international clowns.

Another thing we should look at is title experience. I know someone that STARTED at AMR with an A&P as Title 3. He has less than one year Title 1 now after 11 years with the company. Unfortunately after a few years of "being stuck" it is very difficult to move anywhere and start your time all over. We should keep things as is for the old guard but any new guard should all have only ONE seniority date. If they have the time and the license they should be able to move without having to starting over.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Buck what part do you disagree with specifically?