TWU or IAM in a Merger

[chellow]

I’m so disgusted with the TWU pushing this merger, that I may even vote for the IAM. What can I lost, I’ll be losing everything with the merger. The only benefit for voting for the IAM is that those FAT CATS at the international don’t benefit.

Look at that, I so mad I posted this in the wrong forum

 

[skinvalve]

I bet the voting results in TUL will carry the day.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Why do you presume you will have a choice? My understanding is that a mutual agreement may be arranged much like the IBT/CWA for upstairs. Those paying dues to the IAM will continue to be members of the IAM, and those TWU for TWU. IMO, that may be the best option if it is properly done. Otherwise, is there any difference between these two? Gosh forbid any TWU person get saddled with the insecure and non guaranteed IAM pension scheme but IAM members are already stuck with it so if members of both groups would be able to have a retirement option, i.e., 401k or ponzie scheme, then choice is always best.

As far as seniority, I guess we will have to see who buys who since the AMR contract recognizes a difference. Obviously, the IAM doesn't have the same protection clauses as those at AMR enjoy so it would be relying on the MBA as it did at Airtran if the TWU opts to press for a loss of seniority for IAM members.

Who knows? But I can't imagine [wait, yes I can] that a new entity would be worked out that hoses seniority for one group over another.

FWIW: I think there are legal challenges within the way the IBT/CWA administer the administration and application of representation/elections for those under the independent union they created but that's for another time....

As an aside, Maybe the IBT and AMFA may have something to say regarding AMR MX. IMO, the LCC MX is supportive of the IAM although a handful of cards are being signed there.

regards,

 

[700UW]

Why do you lie?

The IAMNPF is a total separate entity then the IAM, you know this yet you lie about it.

The IAM is not on the hook for any money in regards to the plan.

 

[737823]

Why do you presume you will have a choice? My understanding is that a mutual agreement may be arranged much like the IBT/CWA for upstairs. Those paying dues to the IAM will continue to be members of the IAM, and those TWU for TWU. IMO, that may be the best option if it is properly done. Otherwise, is there any difference between these two? Gosh forbid any TWU person get saddled with the insecure and non guaranteed IAM pension scheme but IAM members are already stuck with it so if members of both groups would be able to have a retirement option, i.e., 401k or ponzie scheme, then choice is always best.

As far as seniority, I guess we will have to see who buys who since the AMR contract recognizes a difference. Obviously, the IAM doesn't have the same protection clauses as those at AMR enjoy so it would be relying on the MBA as it did at Airtran if the TWU opts to press for a loss of seniority for IAM members.

No surprise that the TWU has better successorship language with AMR than the IAM does with US. Also remember the IAM's history in regards to seniority with TWA we will likely see the same happen again. If there is eventually an election, there are more AA employees in fleet service than US employee, AA employees don't want to touch the IAM with a 10 foot pole because of what went on at TWA and scabbing AMFA, most AA employees support AMFA.

Josh

 

[737823]

Why do you lie?

The IAMNPF is a total separate entity then the IAM, you know this yet you lie about it.

The IAM is not on the hook for any money in regards to the plan.

So anytime someone doesn't agree with you or criticizes the IAM in the slightest its a lie?

The IAM is the master of concessions, they facilitated concessions at USAir above and beyond the co. ask only to protect dues payers, went back for two more rounds and then marshalled concessions at NWA and UAL. You are the Overspeed of the IAM, you keep coming on here spinning this BS whenever people legitmattly criticize the IAM, are you that obtuse?

Josh

 

[Tim Nelson]

Why do you lie?

The IAMNPF is a total separate entity then the IAM, you know this yet you lie about it.

The IAM is not on the hook for any money in regards to the plan.

I couldn't agree more with you that the IAM is 'not on the hook' for that ponzie scheme they endorse and negotiate and prostitute on their site. But the members are 'on the hook' and that's my point.

If you had gotten the 'drop dead' letter that told you that your IAM Pension's future benefit was now going to be slashed from $81 down to a measly $46 per month x number of years then maybe you wouldn't be such a pollyanna.

I'm not sure why we even have to discuss this.

regards,

 

[700UW]

No surprise that the TWU has better successorship language with AMR than the IAM does with US. Also remember the IAM's history in regards to seniority with TWA we will likely see the same happen again. If there is eventually an election, there are more AA employees in fleet service than US employee, AA employees don't want to touch the IAM with a 10 foot pole because of what went on at TWA and scabbing AMFA, most AA employees support AMFA.

Josh

Here you go again with more lies and misinformation, the IAM and the other unions at TW and AA went to arbitration, the IAM spent millions defending their former members, the arbiter ruled on the seniority, not the IAM nor the TWU. AA told TWA and all the unions on the property that if they didnt wave their LPPs they wouldnt purchase TWA and TWA would have went chapter 7 and go out of business, you know this yet you keep posting misinformation.

I guess you havent read the AA boards, at their members dont like the TWU and I doubt the TWU would win any election if a merger happens.

The IAM did not scab at NW, the ancillary language was all ready in the cba and fleet service did more ancillary work than AMFA members. The language was removed from the AFMA CBA and the IAM all ready had the language to do the work, so according to you should the members been insubordinate and get fired?

And actually with all the negotiated layoffs from the TWU, the US and AA fleet service numbers are pretty close.

And I guess since you think you know it all, I guess you havent heard of McCaskill-Bond law that wont permit a staple job.

So anytime someone doesn't agree with you or criticizes the IAM in the slightest its a lie?

The IAM is the master of concessions, they facilitated concessions at USAir above and beyond the co. ask only to protect dues payers, went back for two more rounds and then marshalled concessions at NWA and UAL. You are the Overspeed of the IAM, you keep coming on here spinning this BS whenever people legitmattly criticize the IAM, are you that obtuse?

Josh

Tim lied, plain and simple, the IAMNPF is not funded by the IAM nor its members dues, Tim knows this and he was a big supporter for fleet getting the IAMNPF.

The IAM did not facilitate concessions at US Airways, we were the only group to vote down concessions, and have our CBA abrogated, how many times are you going to lie about what happened? Especially since you are not an airline employee, you are not a US Airways employee nor are you an IAM members, yet you keep posting misinformation and you have been shown many times that you are wrong.

I guess you fail to see every union at US, AA, NW and UA were forced to give concessions or face abrogation in Chapter 11 bankruptcy,, this has been pointed out to you many times and yet you keep lying about what happened.

Are you that obtuse that you have to constantly lie about what happened and you dont even work in the airline industry and never have?

And how many times are you going to avoid the truth and tell the board why you hate the IAM and have to lie about the facts?

Who do you work for and did your bank take the TARP Funds?

You have been asked many times yet you fail to answer.

 

[Tim Nelson]

So anytime someone doesn't agree with you or criticizes the IAM in the slightest its a lie?

The IAM is the master of concessions, they facilitated concessions at USAir above and beyond the co. ask only to protect dues payers, went back for two more rounds and then marshalled concessions at NWA and UAL. You are the Overspeed of the IAM, you keep coming on here spinning this BS whenever people legitmattly criticize the IAM, are you that obtuse?

Josh

Josh, unfortunately you are 100% correct. The concessions that fleet took were unique to the IAM and not even the very weak TWU ever made such nasty concessions.

regards,

 

[necigrad]

To the OP, I've been in both TWU and IAM and I've heard little but griping about both. Pick your poison as they say.

 

[737823]

Here you go again with more lies and misinformation, the IAM and the other unions at TW and AA went to arbitration, the IAM spent millions defending their former members, the arbiter ruled on the seniority, not the IAM nor the TWU. AA told TWA and all the unions on the property that if they didnt wave their LPPs they wouldnt purchase TWA and TWA would have went chapter 7 and go out of business, you know this yet you keep posting misinformation.

I guess you havent read the AA boards, at their members dont like the TWU and I doubt the TWU would win any election if a merger happens.

The IAM did not scab at NW, the ancillary language was all ready in the cba and fleet service did more ancillary work than AMFA members. The language was removed from the AFMA CBA and the IAM all ready had the language to do the work, so according to you should the members been insubordinate and get fired?

And actually with all the negotiated layoffs from the TWU, the US and AA fleet service numbers are pretty close.

And I guess since you think you know it all, I guess you havent heard of McCaskill-Bond law that wont permit a staple job.

Tim lied, plain and simple, the IAMNPF is not funded by the IAM nor its members dues, Tim knows this and he was a big supporter for fleet getting the IAMNPF.

The IAM did not facilitate concessions at US Airways, we were the only group to vote down concessions, and have our CBA abrogated, how many times are you going to lie about what happened? Especially since you are not an airline employee, you are not a US Airways employee nor are you an IAM members, yet you keep posting misinformation and you have been shown many times that you are wrong.

I guess you fail to see every union at US, AA, NW and UA were forced to give concessions or face abrogation in Chapter 11 bankruptcy,, this has been pointed out to you many times and yet you keep lying about what happened.

Are you that obtuse that you have to constantly lie about what happened and you dont even work in the airline industry and never have?

And how many times are you going to avoid the truth and tell the board why you hate the IAM and have to lie about the facts?

Who do you work for and did your bank take the TARP Funds?

You have been asked many times yet you fail to answer.

Spin, spin, spin. Why did other workgroups at TWA fare better than the FAs? And Robert Roach even said "IAM members will not be duped into standing with AMFA". See if you were a true unionist you would have seen something bigger is at stake here, but the IAM would rather collect more dues and sell out the AMFA members then act like they had nothing to do with it. Unlike you, Tim makes his position clear and doesn't resort to this "IAM can do no wrong" wishy washy BS. He is able to engage in a discussion with people whom he may disagree with. You on the other hand resort to attacks and calling people liars whenever they disagree with you or legitimately criticize the IAM in the slightest. You are the Overspeed of the IAM and waterboy for the IAM international which is fine but you shouldn't come on here and pretend to be a fair and objective.

Josh

 

[700UW]

The IAM represented the Flight Attendants, Fleet Service., Customer Service, Stock Clerks and Mechanics.

Arbitration.

You have been proven wrong in the information that you post, over and over and over, and when you keep posting wrong information, after you have shown to be wrong, thats lying.

And keep avoiding the truth and the questions poised to you.

In regards to NW, AMFA's own sister union the PFAA crossed the picket line, as did ALPA and the IBT Champion represented pilots flew flights for NW.

Funny you always fail to mention that information, now do you?

 

[Tim Nelson]

The IAM represented the Flight Attendants, Fleet Service., Customer Service, Stock Clerks and Mechanics.

Arbitration.

You have been proven wrong in the information that you post, over and over and over, and when you keep posting wrong information, after you have shown to be wrong, thats lying.

And keep avoiding the truth and the questions poised to you.

In regards to NW, AMFA's own sister union the PFAA crossed the picket line, as did ALPA and the IBT Champion represented pilots flew flights for NW.

Funny you always fail to mention that information, now do you?

700,
when it got to arbitration, didn't the arbitrator have no way out but to rule based on the two contracts? That is how arbitration is decided correct, i.e., what is written in law and in contracts?
And didn't Roach void out much of the scope clause before it reached arbitration? If so, then I don't think it is permissible for Roach to wash his hands of the matter if he put copper in the arbitrators hand but the TWU put in gold.

regards,

 

[700UW]

Scope language was not waived, AA told TWA management it would not buy TWA if all the unions didnt waive their LPPs, so all the unions negotiated with TWA and removed the LPPs thereby causing the seniority arbitration amongst other things.

For someone who was/is a grievance chair and someone who ran for District President I would certainly hope you know the difference between Scope Language and Labor Protective Provisions.

They are totally different items in a CBA.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Scope language was not waived, AA told TWA management it would not buy TWA if all the unions didnt waive their LPPs, so all the unions negotiated with TWA and removed the LPPs thereby causing the seniority arbitration amongst other things.

For someone who was/is a grievance chair and someone who ran for District President I would certainly hope you know the difference between Scope Language and Labor Protective Provisions.

They are totally different items in a CBA.

Yes 700, you are quite right but my question was a point of clarification. What does amaze me is how you can't seem to help yourself but to personally attack someone for just engaging in an issue. Oh well, I was probably better off not asking you since you chew off anyones head and go for a bloodbath over the slightest indifference with the IAM leadership. Sheesh!

regards,