U.S. Pilot Age Goes to 65

[Skymess]

I haven't seen this on this board yet so I figured I'd post it. I know the AA pilots are pissed about it but I'm not so sure how I feel about it. I see some guys at 60 that look like they have another 20 years in them and other guys who are 60 who look like they are about to kick the bucket.

White House Signs Age 65 into Law
Bill includes ALPA Executive Board Recommendations
December 14, 2007 - In the late evening of December 13, President Bush signed into law a bill to raise the mandatory retirement age for U.S. pilots to 65. Days before, both the U.S. Senate and U.S. House of Representatives unanimously approved H.R.4343. (To read Age 65: How it Works, please click here.)

“ALPA appreciates President Bush for swiftly signing this piece of legislation into law. With the inclusion of ALPA’s recommendations, it will protect the piloting profession in the face of a change that was certain to come, given the harmonization with the International Civil Aviation Organization standard,â€￾ Capt. John Prater said.

“I am pleased to report to our members that, pursuant to the decision by ALPA’s Executive Board to change ALPA’s policy on Age 60 in the face of legislation to change the mandatory retirement age that was rapidly moving through Congress, your union’s leaders exerted extensive influence on the legislation that is now law. The bill’s language to raise the upper age limit for airline pilots to 65 is consistent with ALPA’s Executive Board resolution and directive adopted on May 23. It represents months of hard work, both from fellow pilots and our government affairs department, which produced a tangible result.â€￾

 

[Mach85ER]

Some are good enough to keep going. That number drops for every day past Age 60. I see none of the evaluation methods in place today that will catch many who deteriorate from fatigue.

To be honest, in the future, I won't put my family in the back of an airplane where someone thinks they can fly long duty day nearing their mid 60's.

Merry Xmas

 

[AAStew]

Oh come on, there are two pilots in there for specifically that reason! I have found our pilots are mixed in their reactions to this legislation. The older ones are happy to keep on flying for a few more years, the younger ones pissed that their turn at the Captains seat will be significantly delayed.
Mach85ER, I wonder if you will still feel the same when you are nearing mid sixties? I would fly with a pilot in nearing his mid 60's any day. I am hoping if there are some that are "deteriorating" as you say, the FAA or their twice yearly stints at the school will catch. With the average US lifespan at around 83, it does not make sense to stop at 60. Then again, I have no vested interest in seeing them retire.

 

[Skymess]

Oh come on, there are two pilots in there for specifically that reason! I have found our pilots are mixed in their reactions to this legislation. The older ones are happy to keep on flying for a few more years, the younger ones pissed that their turn at the Captains seat will be significantly delayed.
Mach85ER, I wonder if you will still feel the same when you are nearing mid sixties? I would fly with a pilot in nearing his mid 60's any day. I am hoping if there are some that are "deteriorating" as you say, the FAA or their twice yearly stints at the school will catch. With the average US lifespan at around 83, it does not make sense to stop at 60. Then again, I have no vested interest in seeing them retire.

I'd say it depends on each individual. Life span being 83 makes no difference. There's life and then there's life. My parents are both 75 and my dad can still jog and work out everyday where my mom uses a cane and can't walk long distances.

 

[Garfield1966]

Some are good enough to keep going. That number drops for every day past Age 60. I see none of the evaluation methods in place today that will catch many who deteriorate from fatigue.

To be honest, in the future, I won't put my family in the back of an airplane where someone thinks they can fly long duty day nearing their mid 60's.

Merry Xmas

The pilot who landed/crashed the DC-10 in Sioux City, Iowa was 57 at the time. My understanding is that due to his experience and capability, he was able to bring the plane down and 184 people are alive to talk about it. That is not to say that a rookie just out of flight school could not have accomplished the same thing but I am pretty sure skill and experience had something to do with it as well. I do not see how a random age has anything to do with a persons skill and ability to perform a job function. There have been instances where young pilots had keeled over and died (I think there was a CO flight a few month back that had to divert) and there are old geezers who are probably far more fit than you or I. I seriously doubt that what Mr. Hays was able to do at 57, would have exceeded his ability at 61 or 65. I am far more concerned about the 300LB plus Eagle pilot I saw the other day choking down a dough nut down in Eagle Crew Skd.

What is so magical about turning 60? Why not 59 or 58 1/2? Why not 61.2? What study has been done that shows some one at 59 yrs and 364 days is fit to fly and at 60 yrs and 1 day they are not? It's like the 55mph speed limit. 40 years ago cars were not nearly as capable as they are now. The suspension, tires and electronics make cars far safer at high speeds than 40 years ago. Teh 60yr old age limit has been around for a long long time. Medical technology has come along way. They can see inside your body with out even making a nick on your body. People are living longer and some are even more healthy. What ever science the 60 yr age limit was based on back in 1959 is about as out dated as a 59 Ford.

 

[Mach85ER]

Oh come on, there are two pilots in there for specifically that reason! I have found our pilots are mixed in their reactions to this legislation. The older ones are happy to keep on flying for a few more years, the younger ones pissed that their turn at the Captains seat will be significantly delayed.
Mach85ER, I wonder if you will still feel the same when you are nearing mid sixties? I would fly with a pilot in nearing his mid 60's any day. I am hoping if there are some that are "deteriorating" as you say, the FAA or their twice yearly stints at the school will catch. With the average US lifespan at around 83, it does not make sense to stop at 60. Then again, I have no vested interest in seeing them retire.

Oh come on, there are two pilots in there for specifically that reason!

I will counter your "oh come on" with you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Respectfully, I know just as little regarding aft galley operations after the prepare for landing PA as the average FA knows about flying skills degradation with age.

Mach85ER, I wonder if you will still feel the same when you are nearing mid sixties? I would fly with a pilot in nearing his mid 60's any day.

At this point, unless their is some dramatic medical advance, I'll take the Age 60. I have real life experience flying 91/135 bizjets with several early 60's pilots. Same kind of ops as airline flying. There was a real slowdown with all of them, some not too bad, one very bad. I actually had passengers mention they were glad the gray haired guy was there to fly them through the weather and "watch the youngster". Bit my tongue of course, especially when the "youngster" literally prevented the oldster from crashing. No "chit".
I'm glad you have faith in the over 60 group. I'd fly in back if I knew them and have flown with them. Your faith in them however is just blind.

I am hoping if there are some that are "deteriorating" as you say, the FAA or their twice yearly stints at the school will catch.

Schools are every 9 months. FAA medicals every 6. I know as a FA, you are well acquainted with fatigue issues. Medicals and sim checks are done usually in the daytime after a nice cup of coffee. As I mentioned, neither will flag guys who become more affected by fatigue, something that obviously doesn't get better with age.

It sucks to see the downhill slide. We've all seen it with friends and family members. Somehow in the rhetoric, the Age 65 crowd somehow seems to be immune

Merry Xmas


P.S. Garf, I know you don't know squat about the issue.

 

[AAStew]

I will counter your "oh come on" with you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Respectfully, I know just as little regarding aft galley operations after the prepare for landing PA as the average FA knows about flying skills degradation with age.

With all due respect to you, give me a little credit. I know the pilot profession better than many flight attendants. I have been "close" to one or two pilots in my life...and I even have enough hours to take my solo, granted not as much as you...
My best friend is an AA pilot and I trust him as well as I would trust you and the majority of our pilots to report any pilot who they feel uncomfortable flying with. Or are you saying you would sit by and let an unfit pilot fly? They hired most of you with the same personality profile, so I am betting that this would not be a situation that would occur very often.
The truth is that most of you hired from '91 on had expectations to make Captain within 7-8 years at the most and every day you see that timeline slide further and further away, along with cuts in pay, lack of respect and the deterioration of your careersas you had thought they would be. Those are valid issues to be upset about, but not necessarily having a Captain fly until age 65.

I truly wish you the best and hope some miracle helps you move along with your profession....but things don't look rosy do they?

Have a Blessed Christmas and remember there are still many blessings to be thankful for.

 

[Garfield1966]

P.S. Garf, I know you don't know squat about the issue.

Perhaps someone else is capable of answering the question. Apparently you cannot.

 

[eolesen]

What people forget is that Age 60 was a decision made between CR Smith and the FAA, and was never based on medical necessity. The medical justification didn't come into play until people started to challenge Age 60 a few years ago, and the unions decided they needed a way to keep the cash-cow alive. And that's what it comes down to -- increasing the advancement opportunities for junior pilots, and providing an economic argument for higher salaries since their earning potential was capped...

Funny how things change over time.

I'm far less worried about a 64 year old captain than I am of my 70+ year old neighbor who still drives to/from work every day. It takes him three minutes to "walk" from his doorway to his Chevy SUV... He's alone behind the wheel. At least the pilot has someone a few years younger to back him up.

 

[Garfield1966]

I knew that but I was waiting for Mach85 to own up to that but ....

 

[Mach85ER]

I knew that but I was waiting for Mach85 to own up to that but ....

"Garfield1966

View Member Profile Dec 24 2007, 11:41 PM"

19 minutes before midnight on Christmas Eve, and you want a response?

My plate is full at the moment. Later sometime.

I am well aware of the history Eol-, I am also aware of what I witnessed in a jet with these guys. I've also never seen a FA, Crew Scheduler or AMR Manager in the jumpseat when things got busy.

 

[Bob Owens]

What people forget is that Age 60 was a decision made between CR Smith and the FAA, and was never based on medical necessity. The medical justification didn't come into play until people started to challenge Age 60 a few years ago, and the unions decided they needed a way to keep the cash-cow alive. And that's what it comes down to -- increasing the advancement opportunities for junior pilots, and providing an economic argument for higher salaries since their earning potential was capped...

Funny how things change over time.

I'm far less worried about a 64 year old captain than I am of my 70+ year old neighbor who still drives to/from work every day. It takes him three minutes to "walk" from his doorway to his Chevy SUV... He's alone behind the wheel. At least the pilot has someone a few years younger to back him up.

Several years ago an older pilot of a DC-10 on final to LGA dropped dead and fell forward on the stick, luckily the DC10 was a three man crew and the FE was able to pull him off the stick and the other pilot landed the plane without incident. Incidents like that were rare, but that was with the age 60 rule, now with the extra five years, plus the more stressful lifestyle that pilots endure due to years of paycuts, other concessions and a two man crew its only a matter of time before we have a much more disasterous outcome.

Wasnt fatigue a factor in that AA MD-80 crash a few years ago? Older pilots tend to be more vulnerable to fatigue than younger ones.

As far as having someone a few years younger backing him up is that guaranteed? If the law stipulates that then the law is in essence admitting that raising the age introduces risk. Two pilots at 100% is a good standard and should be maintained.Things can get pretty hairy up there in an instant.

As you admit age does result in reduced capacity(based upon your 70+ example), granted it happens at different rates to different people but the age 60 was a good rule. It worked for the passengers and it worked for the pilots.

99.9% of the fire extinguishers on the airplanes have their shelf life expire before they are ever used-should we eliminate all of them too to save the weight and increase profits?

 

[eolesen]

As you admit age does result in reduced capacity(based upon your 70+ example), granted it happens at different rates to different people but the age 60 was a good rule. It worked for the passengers and it worked for the pilots.

If Age 60 was such a good rule, then why were pilots vehemently opposed to it when it was first enacted?...

And, if it is such a good standard, why shouldn't it apply in other positions like AMT's or FA's?

Surely, an AMT with failing eyesight can easily miss something that a younger AMT would notice.

Certainly, a few of the flight attendants with single digit seniority are utterly useless when it comes to carrying out a meal or drink service, let alone conducting an evacuation

Neither of those two groups has a mandatory retirement date.

Sure, they're not in command of an aircraft in motion, but you and other AMT's have said many times over that your eyes and hands are what really keep aircraft in the sky....

 

[Ifly2]

The pilot who landed/crashed the DC-10 in Sioux City, Iowa was 57 at the time. My understanding is that due to his experience and capability, he was able to bring the plane down and 184 people are alive to talk about it.

Not a very good example...

What CA Hays did, he did well, once he stopped trying to control the a/c by manipulating the the useless control column attached to nothing...

'Twas the 40-something check airman in the jumpseat who figured out how to fly the thing...and brought it down...

 

[Bob Owens]

If Age 60 was such a good rule, then why were pilots vehemently opposed to it when it was first enacted?...

And, if it is such a good standard, why shouldn't it apply in other positions like AMT's or FA's?

Surely, an AMT with failing eyesight can easily miss something that a younger AMT would notice.

Certainly, a few of the flight attendants with single digit seniority are utterly useless when it comes to carrying out a meal or drink service, let alone conducting an evacuation

Neither of those two groups has a mandatory retirement date.

Sure, they're not in command of an aircraft in motion, but you and other AMT's have said many times over that your eyes and hands are what really keep aircraft in the sky....

Because pilots weren't making much money back then. Pilots really didnt start making a whole lot until the Jet age when weight and distance were factored into compensation.

Extending the age 60 rule to A&Ps and FAs? I would welcome it. Sure would open up St Louis and Orlando, but of course a generous buyout would have to be offered because it wouldnt be fair for these people have their livelihoods unexpectedly pulled out from under them. If they applied the law to anyone currently 50 or less (so they would have at least 10 years to prepare)I would back it, sure, why not? Most of the mechanics I know try to get out at 60, would love to get out earlier if they could afford it, in fact we pushed for it the last contract. The ramp, with it dangerous conditions and severe weather is no place for the elderly.