United Recovery Is Huge

[Busdrvr]

Uh, no BOBO. "Lowering the bar" suggests being paid LESS than all the others. UAL's pilot contract merely came down to CAL's. you see, the CAL guys bought off on the line of Bafoon crap that said "if you keep your lowest in the industry pay structure, we will put UAL, and it's overpaid employees, out of business, and then you can all fly great big airplanes for what you make now, and oh by the way, we'll need relief on workrules to make it happen..." the simple truth is UAL's workgroups tried to keep wages high, but only DAL followed. NWA undercut us, and then CAL and AMR stalled with some belief that they would "benefit" from a UAL BK. Now AMR is paid even less and CAL's nearly extremely overdue contract (two years?) has at least another year of "negotiations" (during which time they'll certainly need the pilots help to fight of a "leaner, meaner" UAL). So congratu-friculations, you got exactly what you wanted.


UAL fan,
It drives me nuts when folks use terms like "efficiency" and "productivity" to describe UAL's pilot contract. To me, productivity means accomplishing MORE when you go to work, not less. If you brought someone in for a 12 hour shift instead of an 8 hour shift and he accomplished the same amount of "work", is he "more productive"? "Efficient"? The company demanded LESS efficiency, and the employees are paying the price with much more time away from home for the same amount of flying (up to 380 hours a month!!)

 

[ual777fan]

Sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone. I wish UAL the best

 

[Busdrvr]

none taken!! 😉

 

[BOBO BENKINS]

Uh, no BOBO. "Lowering the bar" suggests being paid LESS than all the others. UAL's pilot contract merely came down to CAL's. you see, the CAL guys bought off on the line of Bafoon crap that said "if you keep your lowest in the industry pay structure, we will put UAL, and it's overpaid employees, out of business, and then you can all fly great big airplanes for what you make now, and oh by the way, we'll need relief on workrules to make it happen..." the simple truth is UAL's workgroups tried to keep wages high, but only DAL followed. NWA undercut us, and then CAL and AMR stalled with some belief that they would "benefit" from a UAL BK. Now AMR is paid even less and CAL's nearly extremely overdue contract (two years?) has at least another year of "negotiations" (during which time they'll certainly need the pilots help to fight of a "leaner, meaner" UAL). So congratu-friculations, you got exactly what you wanted.

I got exactly what I wanted? I work for Alaska and we have been asked for a 23% paycut as a direct result of UAL and AMR. I want all airline pilots to have the highest wages possible. I don't see how you can say that your pay was brought down to CAL levels. Seems to me it is a lot less(I have no hard facts,I'll take your word if you know they are the same). When the UAL pilots won industry leading pay rates, I thanked every United pilot I saw. I think you know as well as anyone that what United pilots have agreed to work for is not doing the pilot profession any favors. BOBO

 

[Busdrvr]

"Seems to me it is a lot less(I have no hard facts,I'll take your word if you know they are the same)."

Virtually identical. Cal was the template for the company to work from. I've heard from CAL that UAL's pre-BK work rules at CAL would have required over 1000 new pilots. not any more. It's a little perverted that we even have this discussion. there should be a MINIMUM rate that NONE of us will even go below. But know comes the promises "if you give us X% we can grow"!! Growth comes at somebody elses expense so they say, "if you give US X%, we can beat them back and grow"!!. And the beat goes on.

 

[Borescope]

I have a friend who is a CAL 737 captain. His rate is 176.25 and hr, 12 years Captain. What is it at UAL for the same aircraft?

 

[BOBO BENKINS]

Busdrvr,
I totally agree. Standard rates industry wide, including RJ pilots, would fix a lot of problems. Have a happy new year. BOBO

 

[BOBO BENKINS]

Borescope,
I think we are talking about pay + workrules. BOBO

 

[Busdrvr]

Boroscope,
according to CALs contract, a 737-300 pilot makes considerably less. but heres the rub. Both UAL and CAL now have "simplified" wage scales that "band" together several jets. UAL does 737-300/500/ A320, 757/767, and 777/747-400. CAL does small NB, large NB and WB. They do some rather interesting computations to get a "blended" rate for the 737 with the addition of "larger guppies" (400, 800, 900's). The a-plans appear fairly similar with the edge at UAL but CAL offers a 3% 401K match while UAL has a 9% B-fund (employee doesn't have to give to get). when the B-fund money is counted, UAL has slightly lower 737 rates and higher 777 rates.

Additionally, UAL got such wonderful plumb of a ideas as 4 to 1 trip rig and 4:30 per day straight from our buds in IAH. WRT my earlier comment about AMR's "stalling", AMR enjoyed a $440 million a year cost advantage over UAL due to low pilot rates ALONE. AMR used this advantage to attack UAL in ORD, driving down yields, and slowing UAL's revenue recovery (now progressing nicely). Do you have any doubts as to if this would have happened had they matched UAL and DAL? Rest assured, in the long term, all pilots will make similar wages. the question is what that wage will be, and AMR, NWA, and CAL's pilots appear to much much more influencial in that regard that UAL and DAL was able to be

 

[kiowa]

Ual brought the pilot profession to new highs, nobody except Delta followed, now UAL pilots have had to lead the industry the other way. It's a shame other pilot groups didn't follow. Now SWA pilots are some of the highest paid and they too will end up taking cuts.

Major Airlines Pay Comparison - Hourly Rates
American United US Airways Delta Continental Northwest AirTran Hawaiian Alaska Jet Blue Southwest
777 Captain 176.38 202.84 191.28 305.84 203.79 244.78 158.49
777 First Officer 103.62 123.90 115.08 185.76 115.01 143.80 95.22
767 Captain 154.49 169.78 172.81 256.00 203.79 158.49
767 First Officer 90.75 102.48 103.98 154.21 115.01 95.22
757 Captain 149.68 169.78 172.81 256.00 178.66 219.95 158.49
757 First Officer 87.93 102.48 103.98 154.21 100.04 129.22 95.22
737 Captain 142.70 147.24 150.07 245.49 178.66 211.70 160.83 144.09 189.23 133.79 155.33
737 First Officer 83.83 86.70 89.66 149.10 100.04 124.37 77.81 86.56 115.74 76.78 93.26
MD-80 Captain 138.85 227.15 178.66 204.15 144.50 144.09 189.23
MD-80 First Officer 81.57 135.66 100.04 119.93 68.86 86.56 115.74

Notes:
Pay-rates from above are effective as follows: AA - 5/1/2003, United - 12/1/2002, US Airways - 5/1/2003, Delta - 5/1/2003, Continental - 10/1/2001, Northwest - 9/13/2003, AirTran - 4/1/2003, Hawaiian - 1/1/2003 or 6/1/2003 (aircraft dependent), Alaska - 5/1/2003, Jet Blue - 10/01/01, Southwest - 9/1/2003.
The DC-10 at Northwest and Hawaiian, and the A330 at US Airways were substituted in lieu of the 777 pay-rate.
The A319/A320 at United, US Airways, Northwest, and Jet Blue was substituted in lieu of the 737/800 pay rate. The B-717 at Hawaiian was substituted in lieu of the 737/800 and MD-80 pay rate.
Night rates were the only rates available for US Airways.
Pay-rates for Captains are based on 12th year pay. Pay-rates for First Officers are based on 5th year pay.
OAL Pay Charts from ALPA National - All charts were supplied by ALPA National on May 23, 2003
Alaska
AirTran
Continental
Delta
Hawaiian
Jet Blue
Northwest
United
US Airways - War Contingency Pay Rates
OAL Contracts from ALPA National - All contracts were updated by ALPA National on the indicated date.
Alaska - 6/25/2003
AirTran - 6/26/2003
American - 6/26/2003
Continental - 4/15/2003
Delta - 6/10/2003
Hawaiian - 6/10/2003
Jet Blue - 4/3/2003
Northwest - 4/22/2003
Southwest - 6/26/2003
United - 6/23/2003
US Airways - 6/10/2003

sorry for the crunching.

 

[Busdrvr]

good info!!! important to realize that there are "assumptions" made to get to the numbers. for example, that DAL 767 rate ain't the 767-400 rate, and the cal 737 rate ain't the 737-300 rate. Also ignored are the cost of B plan and A plan when comparing. Additionally, there are some other little "fudges". Air tran for example may have a 12 year Capt rate that looks competative, but since they have no 12 year capts., the 6 year 119.50 rate is a little more appropriate

 

[autofixer]

And UAIR has no 5 year F/Os...the most junior man is 15+ years.

 

[Bizman]

CAL does small NB, large NB and WB. They do some rather interesting computations to get a "blended" rate for the 737 with the addition of "larger guppies" (400, 800, 900's).

Bus,
CAL doesn't have any 737-400, only 300, 500, 700, 800, and 900's. The blended rate applys to only certain pay categories, ie for vacation and dead head pay, not for actual flying. If a pilot flies the 737-500, 300 or 700 they make 156.25 an hr (Capt), the blended rate is 166.41/hr and any flight on the 800 or 900 is paid at 176.25/hr. The blended rate is a rate figured using the # of 800 and 900's as a percentage of the total 737 fleet. The more deliveries they get of the 800 and 900 (2 in the last 2 months) the blended rate goes up.

 

[Busdrvr]

Good info Biz. I only did a quick run through of the contract, and a quick read of the blending. Thanks for clearing up the methodology.

 

[ClueByFour]

Now SWA pilots are some of the highest paid and they too will end up taking cuts.

Don't take that to Vegas and bet on it.

LUV's pilots, unlike some folks like, say, Rick Dubinsky, understand the concept of realistic compensation and that if you do manage to slaughter the "golden goose" that you will go down with it.