United, Unions Get Deadline To Cut Deal

[ualdriver]

UT-

I don't know. Perhaps ALPA SPECIFICALLY asked it not be posted and the other unions did not specifically ask. I have no idea. I do know that in general, with contract negotiations, ALPA doesn't really post intial or interim bargaining positions, and I was surprised they even posted this one.

Vote NO I guess. I think we're all in a difficult position with little or no negotiating leverage. I'm waiting to see the final negotiated contract and then I'm going to compare it to what I'd be facing elsewhere in the industry if UAL went away. The following is probably an unpopular position, but I think the cuts are probably needed in order for UAL to survive long term, especially after having read UAL's last quarterly and 9 month filing. I guess each person has their own line in the sand and will vote accordingly.

 

[UAL_TECH]

UT-

I don't know. Perhaps ALPA SPECIFICALLY asked it not be posted and the other unions did not specifically ask. I have no idea. I do know that in general, with contract negotiations, ALPA doesn't really post intial or interim bargaining positions, and I was surprised they even posted this one.

Vote NO I guess. I think we're all in a difficult position with little or no negotiating leverage. I'm waiting to see the final negotiated contract and then I'm going to compare it to what I'd be facing elsewhere in the industry if UAL went away. The following is probably an unpopular position, but I think the cuts are probably needed in order for UAL to survive long term, especially after having read UAL's last quarterly and 9 month filing. I guess each person has their own line in the sand and will vote accordingly.

[post="203934"][/post]​

Ualdriver,

I think we are all at this crossroad in one big pile of excrement trying to get a gasp of air.

Being the 'dweeb' that I am, I have been crunching some of the numbers on our proposed concessionary hypothesis.

Giving the 18% givebacks for ALPA as the ‘pivot’ on “base payâ€.

I calculate that the AMFA M&R are being asked to fork over 24.098% (Approximately)

The ‘powers that be’ here at the ‘Lazy U’ apparently believe that the AMFA M&R are mindless sheep; are incompetent and ignorant?


JMHO&PO.......

Take Care,
B) UAL_TECH

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Ualdriver,

I think we are all at this crossroad in one big pile of excrement trying to get a gasp of air.

Being the 'dweeb' that I am, I have been crunching some of the numbers on our proposed concessionary hypothesis.

Giving the 18% givebacks for ALPA as the ‘pivot’ on “base payâ€.

I calculate that the AMFA M&R are being asked to fork over 24.098% (Approximately)

The ‘powers that be’ here at the ‘Lazy U’ apparently believe that the AMFA M&R are mindless sheep; are incompetent and ignorant?
JMHO&PO.......

Take Care,
B) UAL_TECH

[post="204120"][/post]​

NWA management asked AMFA represented AMTs for pay cuts and AMFA said, "Show us your books." NWA didn't. AMFA said, "Well, then. Our contract goes to 2005. Talk to us then."

Now UAL management wants cuts from AMFA represented AMTs. I am glad that AMFA is at UAL. I am glad that AMFA will tell the company that they already gave under the iam.

When will airlines learn that concessions do not work and employees learn that concessions beget more concessions.

I wish all airline employees the best. I also thank AMFA for fighting for AMTs!

Concessions... just say no!

 

[kcabpilot]

Ken

I don't doubt that we are going to tell them 'NO' but unlike NWA, we're in bankruptcy and it seems to me that, regardless of what we do, management is going to use the court to extract these concessions from us. In fact, you can just look at US Air to see exactly what's gonna happen (in about a month or two)

I can imagine United management paying outside consultants high dollar to obtain, scan and edit US Air documents - replacing all references to US Air With UAL and reissuing them as their own. I certainly can not imagine United management having an original thought of their own.

In the end there is very little we can do other than to just quit and, at least with respect to the mechanics, that's probably what they want. Lord knows they have enough managers that United Services could be fully comprised of nothing but management and they will then, in essence, have busted the union.

Now wouldn't that be a sight! A United Airlines comprised of nothing but management. A malignant, festering, puss filled canker sore of a corporation slowly off-gassing as it spent it's last few billion dollars of cash.

We may get some satisfaction out of this after all....

 

[Cfm56]

Gotta love the 4 or 5 SWA First Officers who left Southwest for UAL in 2000 in order to get a "real" retirement and "better pay". I don't think they've seen the inside of a cockpit since late 2001. Maybe debt/equity ratios will be looked at a bit more in career decisions.

 

[UAL_TECH]

kcabpilot,

I can imagine United management paying outside consultants high dollar to obtain, scan and edit US Air documents - replacing all references to US Air With UAL and reissuing them as their own. I certainly can not imagine United management having an original thought of their own.



Now wouldn't that be a sight! A United Airlines comprised of nothing but management. A malignant, festering, puss filled canker sore of a corporation slowly off-gassing as it spent it's last few billion dollars of cash.

[post="204183"][/post]​

UAL_TECH

Ken,

If there were more 'intelligent' AMT's in the industry like yourself and Bob Owens then we may have cut this 'cancer' off at the nub.
Thanks for the support and I wish you all the best over at AA.
UAL_TECH

Cfm56,

You are in the wrong thread.
If you want to 'gloat' about the choices that your 'fellow' pilots made at SW coming to UA, then you may consider posting on the 'other' thread.
Did someone mention 'puss filled canker sore'?
UT


Take Care,
UAL_TECH

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Ken

I don't doubt that we are going to tell them 'NO' but unlike NWA, we're in bankruptcy and it seems to me that, regardless of what we do, management is going to use the court to extract these concessions from us. In fact, you can just look at US Air to see exactly what's gonna happen (in about a month or two)

I can imagine United management paying outside consultants high dollar to obtain, scan and edit US Air documents - replacing all references to US Air With UAL and reissuing them as their own. I certainly can not imagine United management having an original thought of their own.

In the end there is very little we can do other than to just quit and, at least with respect to the mechanics, that's probably what they want. Lord knows they have enough managers that United Services could be fully comprised of nothing but management and they will then, in essence, have busted the union.

Now wouldn't that be a sight! A United Airlines comprised of nothing but management. A malignant, festering, puss filled canker sore of a corporation slowly off-gassing as it spent it's last few billion dollars of cash.

We may get some satisfaction out of this after all....

[post="204183"][/post]​

kcabpilot, telling an airline "No!" to concessions either inside or outside of BK is still "NO!" Hindsight is certainly a great talent to possess and when the first a/c at NWA was allowed to go overseas for heavy maintenance should have been like the siren of an incoming missle attack. I do not blame the members. I blame the iam. They were the hired union to prevent this. The same is said about the twu here at AA when the twu allowed AMTs to be removed from the back shops and replaced with $7 hr non-AMTs.

OK, when you slip you might slide a bit. But you get back up. But right now our profession and industry are continuing to slide and the unions are doing 360s yelling, "Hey, I've fallen and can't get up."

I do not mean to be flippant (?) about taking action to protect our professions by saying this airline should do this and that airline should do that. Lorenzo tried breaking labor's back at only two airlines at once. Labor fought him and depending on your outlook labor won. EAL employees faced an EVIL man and shut him down. It cost them their jobs but they did what was needed to prevent the cancer known as concessions.

We at AA face the same things UAL, USAir and other airlines face. We are just a little way off from your point right now. Am I saying that UAL & USAir employees should strike? That is not my call to make. What I am saying is that if the courts allow greedy, inept airline managements to break collective bargaining agreements because they don't know how to run an airline then EVERY airline employee should strike. And while we are at it EVERY union represented member EVERYWHERE should come and walk with us. Will this happen? Who knows. I do know that the time of one airline getting BOHICAed and other airlines standing around saying, "Gee, glad that's not me." , are over.

We must all stand together or certainly we will all fall seperately.

Concessions do not work. If they did why then are airlines still in BK protection? If they worked why then do airlines come back for more concessions? Face it. There is a concerted effort to break labors back in the airline industry. PERIOD! I for one will stand next to my fellow union brother and send a loud and clear message to people who do not know how to run an airline that I am a professional and have and will continue to be a professional. Just like all the other professionals I work with. But I will be compensated fairly for my responsibilities. If my airline can't make money I certainly am not the cause.

Good luck to us all. I am glad that AMFA represents UAL AMTs as well as 7 other airline's AMTs. AMFA knows how to fight for their members.

 

[kcabpilot]

What I am saying is that if the courts allow greedy, inept airline managements to break collective bargaining agreements because they don't know how to run an airline then EVERY airline employee should strike. And while we are at it EVERY union represented member EVERYWHERE should come and walk with us.

[post="204281"][/post]​

Ken - the problem is we are all in seperate cages and they can just pick us off one at a time. The 'cages' are, in part, our own making. Because of seniority rules, 'B' scales and a host of other issues you are locked in to your carrier after 5 years or so. Changing means starting all over again as if you were a kid fresh out of A&P school. Perhaps AMFA is percieved by management as a threat in regards to the possibility of nationwide, cross carrier labor actions of some sort. I don't know the situation at AA but here at UA we've been decimated - about 6000 put on the street in the past 3 years and they are still after us. They came down on us with the big stick and a vengence.

So we're beaten up and bleeding and I can guarantee you that we're not going to vote in concessions again but they are going to be imposed on us regardless.

That's just a cold hard fact.

If we were to strike I can almost guarantee you they would lock us out. They shut down the Indy facility a year and a half ago and it's reopening this month as an AAR facility with X-UAL management already in place. They've got enough management to cover the line. Of course they won't know what they are doing but do you think they care about that? After running us off the property they'll be too busy high-fiveing each other to notice that their airplanes don't work.

Scary stuff

 

[ClueByFour]

2) I had a conversation with my union rep yesterday, and it seems that ALPA legal believes that if our contract is abrogated, a strike or other work action would be illegal, which is contrary to what most of our members believed, including me. Makes for an interesting wrinkle. I guess the other unions have a different interpretation.

[post="202816"][/post]​

Of course he said that. If UA ALPA strikes, ALPA has several thousand fewer dues paying members. What did you think he'd say?

Post-Lorenzo, there is no precedent for this (although I imagine there will be if US gets to that point first).

 

[mrfish3726]

UALdriver says, "2) I had a conversation with my union rep yesterday, and it seems that ALPA legal believes that if our contract is abrogated, a strike or other work action would be illegal, which is contrary to what most of our members believed, including me. Makes for an interesting wrinkle. I guess the other unions have a different interpretation. "

Driver,

If the contracts were to be abrogated and UAL set pay and work rules after the loss of said contracts. What , were, or who can keep any union paying member off the picket line if they do not have a contract anymore. You quote the RLA, SHOW ME??? Even the president couldn't order the workers back to work!! You need to get a grip, no contract NO WORK PERIOD!!!

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

If we were to strike I can almost guarantee you they would lock us out. They shut down the Indy facility a year and a half ago and it's reopening this month as an AAR facility with X-UAL management already in place. They've got enough management to cover the line. Of course they won't know what they are doing but do you think they care about that? After running us off the property they'll be too busy high-fiveing each other to notice that their airplanes don't work.

Scary stuff


A lock out is possible. But hard choices are to be made. If UAL or USAir breaks their contracts I call ALL airline employees to do what is right.

Your Indy facility was a class operation ruined by UAL's greed and the iam's hatred for AMTs. PERIOD! This was wrong. But how many injustices must be committed before people stand up for themselves?

Labor is under attack. It is time we stand together... or we will certainly fall seperately.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Seeing my stupidvisor putting his ass on the line for once would make me all tingly inside.

Of course, I wouldn’t fly in this ‘aluminum tube’, and it would be funny if it weren’t so stupidly dangerous.

At least with a ‘Lock-Out’ we’ll get unemployment!!!

Hey Glenn…. Lock me out!!! Teach me another lesson!!!

Take Care,
UAL_TECH

 

[ualdriver]

Of course he said that. If UA ALPA strikes, ALPA has several thousand fewer dues paying members. What did you think he'd say?

[post="204350"][/post]​

ClueByFour-

The above insinuation is very wrong. My (our) union rep is a LEC guy, not an ALPA national guy per se. I have also known him for many years now personally and professionally. If I were to take an educated guess because I will not speak for him, he probably could care less right now about how many dues paying members ALPA National has right now and more about smoothly transitioning (if possible) to an exit from bankruptcy and everything that is going along with that right now. I'm not sure many people properly understand the relationship between a particular airline's LEC/MEC members and ALPA national, but it's probably not what you think if you believe the above statement.

 

[Borescope]

If the contracts were to be abrogated and UAL set pay and work rules after the loss of said contracts. What , were, or who can keep any union paying member off the picket line if they do not have a contract anymore.

[post="204354"][/post]​

Fish,
This was from an article on USAir, but in the case of a strike it would also allpy to UA. However, there's alway the "Blue Flu"

"Workers in every industry -- except railroads and airlines -- are covered by the National Labor Relations Act, which permits employees to strike if their contracts are terminated, O'Leary said.

Railroads and airlines are treated differently from other industries because their labor strikes can affect public safety, O'Leary explained.

Olson, who has represented companies operating under the Labor Railway Act for more than 20 years, said he believes it would be difficult for US Airways' unions to strike.

If Mitchell rejects US Airways' labor contracts, the airline likely would serve unions with a notice that, under the Labor Railway Act, preserves the status quo. Employees would be forced to labor under terms of the company's last offer -- in this case, $1 billion in wage and benefit cuts -- until they negotiated new collective-bargaining agreements, Olson said.

If the unions strike or attempt to strike, the company could get a court injunction stopping them, Olson said."

 

[ClueByFour]

ClueByFour-

The above insinuation is very wrong. My (our) union rep is a LEC guy, not an ALPA national guy per se. I have also known him for many years now personally and professionally. If I were to take an educated guess because I will not speak for him, he probably could care less right now about how many dues paying members ALPA National has right now and more about smoothly transitioning (if possible) to an exit from bankruptcy and everything that is going along with that right now. I'm not sure many people properly understand the relationship between a particular airline's LEC/MEC members and ALPA national, but it's probably not what you think if you believe the above statement.

[post="204537"][/post]​

You originally said (and the bolding is mine to clarify my point):

I had a conversation with my union rep yesterday, and it seems that ALPA legal believes that if our contract is abrogated, a strike or other work action would be illegal, which is contrary to what most of our members believed, including me. Makes for an interesting wrinkle. I guess the other unions have a different interpretation.

I'm assuming that ALPA National is providing the legal talent, correct? And, if ALPA national were to lose the entire UAL pilot group and/or have to pay strike pay, how would that impact ALPA national?

I think your local guy probably believes what he is hearing. I also think that ALPA, like most unions, cares much less about the welfare of the profession and/or the working conditions of a particular group so much as it does maintaining itself as a whole. Witness the pressure they put on the duly elected members of the AAA ALPA from the locals in PIT and PHL during the US "concession" talk.