US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 4/15-4/22

[Richard]

Another week another pilots labor thread....

And another reminder to observe the rules of the board....

Please remember that this board is open to the public, and alot of what has been posted until now is not complementary either to the profession or the individual sides of this dispute..so please think before you post.

Thank you.

 

[usabusdriver]

USAPA has the same ongoing duty of fair representation and responsibility to ALL pilots regardless of the court decision. The court may block USAPA's current path to negotiating a bigger pie and distributing the pie fairly and equitably. USAPA would then simply pursue an alternate path to the same goals.

There are an infinite number of possible ways to divide the pie between East and West pilots. If the court blocks USAPA's current path through a DFR ruling and injunction then USAPA will have several choices. The most likely would be to negotiate separate but equal contracts maintaining separate operations or balancing the inequity of the NIC list in a joint contract by equitably redistributing the total value of the contract through the various sections of the CBA.

Captain Under,

Your imaginative post has only one problem, it would result in a DFR. If USAPA were able to negotiate separate contracts (they will not), those separate contracts must be equal in benefits / gains between the two or again another DFR. USAPA could not negotiate an east contract that has parity with the west in terms of pay rates, duty rigs, pay protections for trips, vacation ect and then negotiate a west contract that did not have similar gains without liability from DFR.

The monies in any joint contract will necessarily have a greater proportional benefit the east, primarily from parity. But if the contract is “constructedâ€￾ to the detriment of the west pilots in furtherance of the east pilots then again another DFR. USAPA could not negotiate a joint contract where the west pilots lose benefits or pay while the east pilots garner a substantial increase without liability from DFR. The company would also be liable. The west pilots have already claimed this in their law suite under the guise of collusion between the company and the union, and therefore not a likely outcome.

Just as was discussed early on about USAPA negotiating a DOH seniority list, many stated that the largest impediment would be the company. It has been reported, but unconfirmed, that AL Hemmingway when deposed for the upcoming trial stated that from the company’s perspective the Nicolau list was the only list ever considered for seniority integration. I know that (gasp) a VP would not engage in a little deceptive double speak to the pilots or that perhaps a little CYA was taking place. The pilot food fight over the seniority integration only empowers and emboldens our illustrious managerial group to take advantage of us in any way they can no matter that it is unscrupulous or not.

Just my .02

 

[Megasnoop]

IF we get an unfavorable ruling after all appeals are exhausted. Win or lose (the appeal) , Well accept the results and move on.
So what is it. Are you going to appeal or are you going to accept it and move on?

Ok, Direct, Im sure one side will appeal. Maybe BOTH will appeal, if the rulings split the baby. Thanks to your 1/3, we can afford it. As I said: IF we get an unfavorable ruling after all appeals are exhausted. Win or lose (the appeal) , Well accept the results and move on. How can I be clearer?

And even if we lose, not much will change. Theres no movement right now, except company trying to screw us both with more “right-sizingâ€￾ (thats Doug quote). "Long-term cuts," says the man. NIC win wont do you much good for years to come without expansion and no retirements.

So I throw it back to you:

If you want NIC so badly or if the judge orders us to come up with an instant NIC contract, Im sure our union can get you one, in the form of the only thing the company will sign onto right now, Hemenway letter. For us, its a wash. We still get our $23,000 pay-outs. We still have equipment differential. For you, trading NIC seniority for a 14% pay cut? What a choice.

Not hearing any answer to that. Snoop

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Ok, Direct, Im sure one side will appeal. Maybe BOTH will appeal, if the rulings split the baby. Thanks to your 1/3, we can afford it. As I said: IF we get an unfavorable ruling after all appeals are exhausted. Win or lose (the appeal) , Well accept the results and move on. How can I be clearer?

And even if we lose, not much will change. Theres no movement right now, except company trying to screw us both with more “right-sizingâ€￾ (thats Doug quote). "Long-term cuts," says the man. NIC win wont do you much good for years to come without expansion and no retirements.

So I throw it back to you:

If you want NIC so badly or if the judge orders us to come up with an instant NIC contract, Im sure our union can get you one, in the form of the only thing the company will sign onto right now, Hemenway letter. For us, its a wash. We still get our $23,000 pay-outs. We still have equipment differential. For you, trading NIC seniority for a 14% pay cut? What a choice.

Not hearing any answer to that. Snoop

We are not in this battle because "we want the Nic so badly." We are at this juncture because we refuse to accept the tyrany of the majority - the DFR failure - that usapa is trying to impose. The biggest part of that tyranny is DOH. Most of us can live with any eastie and usapa itself once they decide to play fair and once they begin to equally represent ALL pilots of the new US Airways.

The judge is simply going to do this: he will TELL your usapa leadership to play fair, or be ready to pay dearly for its failure to do so. The west is not going to be exposed to court imposed penalty, nor will the company. Can't say the same for the east/usapa.

ps: DOH is not playing fair. You need to accept this.

 

[EastUS]

We are not in this battle because "we want the Nic so badly."

🙄 I think we're done right there

Speaking of "battle" though = Have you "saved hundreds of troops on the ground" in Fantasyland lately? 😉

 

[nic4us]

Ok, Direct, Im sure one side will appeal. Maybe BOTH will appeal, if the rulings split the baby. Thanks to your 1/3, we can afford it.

And even if we lose, not much will change.


If you want NIC so badly or if the judge orders us to come up with an instant NIC contract, Im sure our union can get you one, in the form of the only thing the company will sign onto right now, Hemenway letter. For us, its a wash. We still get our $23,000 pay-outs. We still have equipment differential. For you, trading NIC seniority for a 14% pay cut? What a choice.

Not hearing any answer to that. Snoop

Snoop

I do not know where you are getting this 1/3rd thing. There are only about 140 West USAPA members out of how many total. Jury is still out on when dues obligation began and what % objectors will owe.

If USAPA losses the Addington case things would most likely change immediately, depending on the ruling.

LOA 93 is a pay raise for our 757 crews. That does me no good, but hey somebody will get a raise.

 

[Metroyet]

Snoop

I do not know where you are getting this 1/3rd thing. There are only about 140 West USAPA members out of how many total. Jury is still out on when dues obligation began and what % objectors will owe.

If USAPA losses the Addington case things would most likely change immediately, depending on the ruling.

Relax. It gives him a little delusional ego boost to PRETEND that the East has successfully subjugated the West. Not unlike a cruel overlord relishing the sadistic pleasure of forcing the peasants to pay tribute. Stating the plain facts as you have above won't register. Besides, let's not ruin the fantasy just yet. Iin a few weeks the whole world is going to collapse around their kind and perhaps then the light of reality will actually bring them back from fantasy camp. Until then...

 

[prechilill]

Iin a few weeks the whole world is going to collapse around their kind and perhaps then the light of reality will actually bring them back from fantasy camp. Until then...

They will move on, in defeat, consoling each other with stories of separate operations indefinitely and cozy dreams of a massive snapback that Parker is just going to gladly hand over to them- until that day comes and goes for a snapback and they are still seeing LOA93 paychecks. They will wake up one day and find we are working in combined operations due to possibly a court order or perhaps some other enforcement mechanism (trusteeship?), pout about it, scratch their heads, and then think up a new boogie man or conspiracy theory to vent their frustrations on. It sure is easier to make up a villain than have to find one looking at you in a mirror. I guess it is just an inherent mechanism of coping- nothing else can explain why they choose to live in a bubble, around here at least.

 

[luvn737s]

Will the restriction on flying aircraft from the opposing side be lifted soon? (No crew mixing, just equipment).

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not unless something supercedes or nullifies that language in the TA. That probably means a joint contract or a judge.

Jim

[ps added] Keep in mind that it might take a judge to determine "whose" airplanes the new deliveries are. Just because the flying time might be based in PHL or PHX doesn't mean that it's East or West flying time.

 

[luvn737s]

An interesting read on how the Supreme Court feels germane fees should be handled

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getc...mp;invol=97-428

 

[toganoflex]

USAPA's brilliant lawyers at work:


33) Motion To Exclude Improper Reference in Opening Statement to
Evidence Ordered Excluded.

Defendant’s Proposed Order:
“Counsel shall be prohibited from referencing or mentioning in Opening
Statement any evidence that the Court has ordered excluded from trial on
motion in limine.â€￾

Plaintiffs’ Response:
The Court said that a lot of motions in limine do not need to be filed.
Defendant’s final motion proves the point. A motion in limine to obtain an
Order directing counsel to not violate orders arising from other motions in
limine is as unnecessary as a motion can be. The Court, therefore, should
summarily deny Defendant’s Motion in Limine #33

 

[nic4us]

An interesting read on how the Supreme Court feels germane fees should be handled

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getc...mp;invol=97-428

Damn, this objector thing is tougher than I thought. But, Supreme Court says objectors can go straight to federal court bypassing an arbitrator, and the amount being challenged has to be held in escrow. Hmmm, I may have to pay it, but USAPA cannot spend it, in the words of Arte Johnson ( spoken with a comical german accent).....veeeerrry interesting.

 

[westcoastflyer]

Not unless something supercedes or nullifies that language in the TA. That probably means a joint contract or a judge.

Jim

[ps added] Keep in mind that it might take a judge to determine "whose" airplanes the new deliveries are. Just because the flying time might be based in PHL or PHX doesn't mean that it's East or West flying time.

This whole East Metal/West Metal thing is just pathetic. This company has done an awful job in trying very hard not to merge these two operations into a cohesive, efficient operation. Did PSA/USAir ever refer to West or East Metal? No. Did Piedmont/USAir ever refer to South or North Metal? No. It's too bad that this whole thing has to be decided by the courts; but I, and many others, hopefully, look forward to having this thing resolved in the near future, without endless appeals by the losing (most like USAPA) party. It will definitely be time to move forward, for the betterment of the employees, the traveling public, and the shareholders.

 

[traderjake]

Did Piedmont/USAir ever refer to South or North Metal?

No, but we still call the USAir pilots "rustheads".