US Pilots Labor Thread 4/7 to 4/14- ALL US Pilots Labor Issues Here

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Phoenix

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I'm making the assumption that Wake is a solid judge and there won't be any procedural grounds and that the 9th Circus won't find any other reason to hear an appeal if things don't go USAPA's way.

The jibe, of course, it that a USAPA supporter could say "I'll accept a final and binding decision." History has shown that's absolutely not true.


AHAHAHA!

History is sufficient to demonstrate that no decision is final and binding without a modicum of agreement that it is first slightly just.
 

prechilill

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AHAHAHA!

History is sufficient to demonstrate that no decision is final and binding without a modicum of agreement that it is first slightly just.

I am sure the Honorable Judge Neil Wake will agree with you... :lol:

Where do you guys come up with these delusions of grandeur anyway???

Lay off the ketamine!
 

Metroyet

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I am sure the Honorable Judge Neil Wake will agree with you... :lol:

Where do you guys come up with these delusions of grandeur anyway???

Lay off the ketamine!

Yep, agreements are only "Final and Binding" if the East says so, (DFR in a nutshell). It would be funny if they didn't actually believe it. I have a feeling that notion might get somewhat modified here in the near future.
 

nycbusdriver

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The silence of defeat... It is deafening.

Where are all the chest thumpers? What happened to that USAPA dream? Why is LOA93 still here? Hellooooo in there. How is life in the cave???

You've either lost you internet connection, or you are typically not paying much attention to anything but the Addington case. While you are focused on that one battle, USAPA is quietly going to bat for the west pilots on several fronts...because it's their job.

Is that all you have to brag about, voting ALPA off?

How about telling us what has been accomplished since?

Besides the "fuel skool" fiasco, how about the two grievances regarding the RJs and minimum block hours that are being heard? Since the numbers don't lie (and USAPA is using the numbers they got from the company,) and the company is using every delay tactic in the book to keep the arbitrator from hearing these grievances, I can only assume that USAPA will prevail. If that happens with either or both, the fallout will be a win almost exclusively for the west pilots (since it is the west minimum block hours that were, and are, being violated.)
 
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luvn737s

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ALPA briefed us why members and non-membrs were paying huge attorneys fees for outside counsel, germaine to Representation. "Illegal activity?" What criminal law violated? Luvn, I know you think its a crime, but this is a civil suit. Agency fees are now being used to pay for the DFR. If your/our non-members dont like it, they can sue, I guess. Meanwhile thanks for your 1/3 contribution.
Illegal is a term that can be used for unlawful acts even if refers to civil law, don't confuse yourself.

Yes, USAPA has adopted the "so sue us" mantra. Maybe they'll print it on their flag.

The white one. :up:
 

cleardirect

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When I was ALPA member back in 80s and 90s, dues/agency fees covered the costs of the Air Wisconsin, Jet America, EAL, Rakestraw/UAL, DAL, CAL DFRs. As an FE status Rep back then, ALPA briefed us why members and non-membrs were paying huge attorneys fees for outside counsel, germaine to Representation. "Illegal activity?" What criminal law violated? Luvn, I know you think its a crime, but this is a civil suit. Agency fees are now being used to pay for the DFR. If your/our non-members dont like it, they can sue, I guess. Meanwhile thanks for your 1/3 contribution.

Following your logic.

Why do you and all of usapa keeping called those involved with the RICO suit Criminalsâ€￾ and the activity criminal? It is a civil suit?

So you can stop calling them criminals now. Maybe an apology that you were wrong.
 

nic4us

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Yes, USAPA has adopted the "so sue us" mantra. Maybe they'll print it on their flag.

Will not need to sue over the germaine fees issue. Just put a bug in the auditors ear, let them know they are being closely watched by a large group with a deep intrest, who might eventually challenge their findings in front of an arbitrator. After the Arthur Andersen-Enron fiasco auditors are reluctant to make exagerated claims.
 
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You've either lost you internet connection, or you are typically not paying much attention to anything but the Addington case. While you are focused on that one battle, USAPA is quietly going to bat for the west pilots on several fronts...because it's their job.

NYC,

Yes USAPA has a responsibility to represent ALL the USAirways pilots fairly by law. The responsibility of any trade union is to manage the pie which is the CBA. The goals are to make the pie bigger, distribute the pieces of the pie fairly, and defend the pie from management attacks. ALPA was replaced because they negotiated a smaller pie, tried to distribute 2/3 of the pie to 1/3 of the pilots and allowed the CBA to be violated routinely by management.

Generally a trade union is given the latitude of a legislature by the courts. The courts rarely interfere by challenging union decisions or molest unions during contract negotiations. Courts also recognize that it is counterproductive to fine unions or assess damages because it would deprive the union of funds needed to fulfill their representation obligations. The normal remedy for incompetent or unfair union representation is to replace the union in an election.

USAPA has the same ongoing duty of fair representation and responsibility to ALL pilots regardless of the court decision. The court may block USAPA's current path to negotiating a bigger pie and distributing the pie fairly and equitably. USAPA would then simply pursue an alternate path to the same goals.

There are an infinite number of possible ways to divide the pie between East and West pilots. If the court blocks USAPA's current path through a DFR ruling and injunction then USAPA will have several choices. The most likely would be to negotiate separate but equal contracts maintaining separate operations or balancing the inequity of the NIC list in a joint contract by equitably redistributing the total value of the contract through the various sections of the CBA.

Of course the company would gain extreme negotiating leverage in either separate ops where they can whipsaw the groups against each other or negotiating a contract with USAPA trying to balance seniority inequities by changing multiple contract provisions. This was the same trap that ALPA had maneuvered us into.

It is absolutely clear that a DFR ruling would harm ALL USAirways pilots by escalating the seniority dispute into WWIII. The result then would be the total value of a joint CBA or separate CBA's would be a significantly smaller pie to share.

underpants
 

jetjok1

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May 25, 2008
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Based on another similar incident in DCA, the CP office in PHX appears to be backing up their own and by doing so encouraging this behavior.

USAPA should be pressuring management for relief - positive space for jump seat denied pilots, adjustment to minimum pay guarantee, etc.

The next time a west pilot asks for my jump seat my first question will be - have you ever denied the same to an east pilot?

Piedmont,

Good idea about the positive space for denied J/S. However, I will never deny a Cass member or one of our own (east or west) a jumpseat. I won't get into that "life for a life thing". It's childish and a game I won't play. I'm a long range commuter and I know how important it is to get to work (or play for that matter). You folks out there playing that game should be ashamed of yourselves. If you need to throw around your authority like denying jumpseats, hell, you must beat up your children too because there is no reason that comes to mind to do either=anytime, anywhere!
 

Metroyet

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NYC,


It is absolutely clear that a DFR ruling would harm ALL USAirways pilots by escalating the seniority dispute into WWIII.

underpants


WWIII? How? With Whom? By what method?

This will be OVER in 3 weeks. The appeals process isn't going to delay the implementation of whatever injunctive relief the Judge may or may not issue. Newsflash, you ARE IN WWIII. Fat Man and Little Boy are loaded up and headed toward the Emperor. The aftermath will be living up to our collective responsibilities. That's it. I'm sure the company will be on the lookout for trouble and deal with it swiftly. I'm sure they've grown weary of this situation as well and want to move fwd.
 

Piedmont1984

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Piedmont,

Good idea about the positive space for denied J/S. However, I will never deny a Cass member or one of our own (east or west) a jumpseat. I won't get into that "life for a life thing". It's childish and a game I won't play. I'm a long range commuter and I know how important it is to get to work (or play for that matter). You folks out there playing that game should be ashamed of yourselves. If you need to throw around your authority like denying jumpseats, hell, you must beat up your children too because there is no reason that comes to mind to do either=anytime, anywhere!

I have never denied. Nor did I say that I would. What I said is I will ask the question and if the rider's response is "yes I have denied east pilots the JS" - then I get the opportunity to lecture him/her on JS protocal and other integrity matters:)
 

cleardirect

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NYC,

It is absolutely clear that a DFR ruling would harm ALL USAirways pilots by escalating the seniority dispute into WWIII. The result then would be the total value of a joint CBA or separate CBA's would be a significantly smaller pie to share.

underpants
This says a lot about you and the east pilots. If the west wins the court battle the "war" is over. Time to accept it and move on. The only way it would turn into WWIII is if once again the east does not accept the result. But this time it will hold the weight of the federal government.

Separate ops? Not likely. Do you think the judge is not aware of the theories going on. He is going to make sure that his ruling is enforced and complied with. Separate ops and smaller pie for the west is not what he will have in mind. Either for the pilot group or the company. The judge has stated very clearly that he is going to be careful about harming the company. Separate ops does not help the company.

Dream on though. You can wake up to a new world in mid May.
 

prechilill

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Nov 28, 2002
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There are an infinite number of possible ways to divide the pie between East and West pilots. If the court blocks USAPA's current path through a DFR ruling and injunction then USAPA will have several choices. The most likely would be to negotiate separate but equal contracts maintaining separate operations or balancing the inequity of the NIC list in a joint contract by equitably redistributing the total value of the contract through the various sections of the CBA.

...

It is absolutely clear that a DFR ruling would harm ALL USAirways pilots by escalating the seniority dispute into WWIII. The result then would be the total value of a joint CBA or separate CBA's would be a significantly smaller pie to share.

underpants


Do you really think Judge Wake cares what you think is fair? Can you tell us all how Judge Wake will, as you said, "interfere with USAPA getting a CBA"? We are all ears around here...
You seem to come up with some real revolutionary ideas about what courts can and cannot do so I think exploring more of this idea you proclaimed above would at least make for some very entertaining reading for us out west. So please, expound upon this idea that Judge Wake is going to stand in the way of progress with the pilot group just because he had to apply the rule of law to thwart further illegal actions by USAPA. You have our undivided attention.

And that thing about WW3, why are you guys going to go nuclear when you win this DFR suit? The west doesn't have a case, remember? You are going to win, aren't you... Or have your feelings changed lately?
 
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luvn737s

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It's ironic that USAPA gets so frustrated over the company's ability to delay negotiations and grievance arbitration with no apparent consequences. Perhaps they should consider how their behavior with the west affects their relevance at the table. Or maybe they feel they just need to do more of the same to be successful.

Yeah, that's it.
 
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