Us Airways' True Problem Created By

[RowUnderDCA]

Does it make sense to blame Seigel for not having a crystal ball and then to forgive Colodny for not having one? Now, it's kind of like you guys are blaming Seigel for not having a time machine to go back and undo some of the decisions that were made by prior management that labor is paying for now. The problem is that those decisions back then were unpopular with certain labor groups AND management did NOT stand up to them. Analysts have consistently up to this day blamed high labor costs for U's troubles. I'll give you that there are systemic reasons why U's labor costs are higher per unit (namely the stupid route system created and NOT corrected by Colodny) Isn't that why Colodny is popular with some, because he didn't make the hard choices to stand up to certain labor groups/issues?

Just like there is bad choices that haunt societies, there are bad choices that haunt companies. In a nut shell, the old U for years did NOT focus on running an efficient airline that went to where folks wanted to go. Instead it tried to manipulate the market to monopolize a particular segment and trap customers and even employees. That's bad karma that you're paying for now, since the trap door for customers has been opened.

Hey, I don't agree with the justice of the broader economic environment, but that's the problem.

 

[700UW]

I guess the boobster cant read to well, lets refresh the events

From NYCBUSDRIVER:

"When PeopleExpress went under (they actually still are here...it's now called Continental Airlines...and they will be here LONG after USAirways kicks the bucket), were they the last LCC to try the northeast? Have you been doing a Rip Van Winkle for the past 20 years? Is there oxygen on that planet where you live?"

From 700UW:

"No Continental Airlines was around before People Express, your information was totally wrong.

From CAL's Web Page:

1934
Continental Airlines was founded over 60 years ago by Walter T. Varney and his partner Louis Mueller as Varney Speed Lines. On July 15, 1934, Continental's first flight was flown by its precursor Varney Speed Lines on a 530-mile route from Pueblo, Colorado to El Paso, Texas with stops in Las Vegas, Santa Fe and Albuquerque, New Mexico. That same year, Varney ceded control to Mueller.

So tell me how CAL is Peoples since CAL was founded in 1934?

From the History of People Express:

People Express unofficially began on January 7, 1980 when Don Burr submitted his resignation from Texas Air to Frank Lorenzo. He, along with his secretary Melrose Dawsey left to form their own carrier. Almost immediately, they were joined by Gerry Gitner, another associate from Texas Air. Using their own cash, they began making plans for the new carrier and by fall had come up with the name People Express. Burr was quite interested in creating a positive working environment, one where people would be motivated as owners, not just employees. All employees would be required take stock in the company as part of their compensation, and everyone (including pilots and executives) would be cross-utilized to help keep costs down. There would be no secretaries or assistants -- everyone would be a manager.

Just three weeks after the Frontier shutdown, the agreement to sell People Express to Texas Air was announced on September 15, 1986. Texas Air formally approved the deal on December 31, and plans were announced for the full integration of not only People Express, but also New York Air and four commuter carriers into Continental on February 1, 1987."

from NYCBUSDRIVER:

700UW -

You are correct. I didn't mean to imply that CO was derived from PeopleExpress. Far from it, CO was around for ages before PE came about. But PE did not go under, as Pitbull implied. It was absorbed in the Lorenzo mess which has survived as CO and flourished under Gordon Bethune...the guy to whom St. Edwin Colodny gave the boot.


From ME:

Ok show me where I am wrong, he even agreed with me, maybe you should take the time to read the posts instead of dreaming ways to insult and attack me.

 

[PITbull]

Row,

I agree with your point in part. . No need to blame past CEOs. The situation is what it is, and we have a team that is experimenting. There is no "exact science" to business. You can follow trends, but no one can predict mishaps, war, fuel prices etc or unemployment upticks.

However, implying that the industry workers were over paid, is ludicrous. Its like saying if your employer gets in trouble financially, then he shouldn't have paid you your high price salary all the years you earned it. In fact,

Do you know what that would do to the local econcomies. Pittsburgh for example was U #1 employer from the early 90s to 2000 (almost 13,000 workers) Folks had livable wages and spent money in their respective localities. To imply that unions should have been hammered by stronger mangments, would mean Pittsburgh and many other cities would not have had flourishing economies. The late 90s were robust years, and folks across the country labor and non-labor made decent wages/salaries. Its the trends, and there is always a "trickle down" effect.

PS: The route structure you see today, is not the route structure that was in effect when colodney was CEO. We were for many years a "regional carrier". Sometime in 1985, we started to expand "westward". Keep in mind, U was the #1 East coast carrier...66% of this countries population resides East of the Mississippi. So, I don't look at having a strong East Coast route structure as any kind of blunder.

 

[PITbull]

Piney Bob comments: Bottom line 700UW is that NYCBusDrivers point still stands. PE was absorbed into CO, Co pilots from the same class are now flying 777's instead of being 100 from the bottom of US's furlough list


Geezus Bob, don't you have an original thought of your own. You debate 700uw on what NYbusdriver states. How shallow. You keep crawling up folks assets, and you may just get stuck there and never see daylight.

How do you know nybusdriver is credible with his ass-umptions. You state them as if it is known, written document. God, its just his version. The guys not speaking "gospel".

PS: Did you ever watch "my three sons"? Ernie's brother..LOL......

Just gotta love these guys......

 

[700UW]

Bob, you really need to calm down, or shall I say cool off?

Have a cold one on me!

And Bob he was wrong, guess you have a comprehension problem,

Read it again:

From NYCBUSDRIVER:

"When PeopleExpress went under (they actually still are here...it's now called Continental Airlines

 

[PITbull]

700uw,

Don't you start that up again.... you are cracking me up and off my kitchen table. already......

 

[PITbull]

Because I take him at face value until I see a reason not to. So far I believe him.

BTW I happen to agree with you that the whole UA merger and pay escalation issue is a huge part of US's current problem.

Answer me this? How much of Colodny's apparent lack of forward thinking do you think helped create the US/UA Merger fiasco. I'm looking for a sort of history first hand from someone who was there prior to reading Bethune's book which I just ordered. I do value your insight and opinion on this. It may be one sided but that's OK. We've debated enough I can figure it out. Thanks in Advance.

Bob,

In all seriousness now, Colodney had absolutely nothing to do with any merger or collapse. YOu know I have spoken to him sometime ago. He is just sick over what is happening to our airline...just sick over it.

Merger with United would not have been Colodney's call if he were sitting on the board back in late 90's and year 2000 when it was announced. He was never looking to sell USAirways, never. He went into retirement and trusted Schofield with his "ship".

That's my version Bob. I am only one person. But I am sure "up close and personal" if you catch my drift.

 

[Analyst]

you are cracking me up and off my kitchen table.

Not at Denny's today?

 

[nycbusdriver]

nybusdriver,

Hey, you think you can sell me one of them there "crystall balls" you got?

Sure would like to know whose going to be around and whose not so I can gather up some shares of stock and be as wealthy as YOU.

I doubt I can help you, Pitbull.

You still think PeopleExpress went out of business, and somehow we are better off than the remnants of that operation.

Case in point. This is at least one pilot that I know of at USAirways who is within 100 numbers of furlough. He was a PeopleExpress pilot, and chose to leave. His classmates at PeopleExpress are now 777 captains at Continental. Now, tell me how we are better off than those poor PeopleExpress employees?

NYbusdriver,

If you are playing "riddle me this"...and you are the pilot that's now flyiing at Continnetal, then you know nothing of our airline and its mangement. Second, if you are not and you are near the bottom, I can fully understand your desparation, especially if you are sitting left seat and maybe going to the right.

The pilot in question is NOT me. He's one I have known for many years...long before either of us were hired at this "nameless" airline. I spoke to him at the "little red school house" on Beaver Grade Road last week, where we were both in training.

Me? I've worked this job since 1979. I doubt that puts me 100 numbers from furlough. If it's too difficult for you to figure out how way off base you are in your assumptions and arithmetic, find a USAirways pilot to give you a hint.

Me? I have to catch my DH to PIT. Bye.

 

[PITbull]

Not at Denny's today?

Denny's? Who ever goes to Denny's? Are you talking to me?

I haven't been to a Denny's in upwards of years.

 

[PITbull]

Bob,

Answer again to your query....NO. The blame is not on Colodneys shoulders at all. I won't even go and blame Wolf. No one has had the opportunities to turn an airline around like Siegel. There is no excuse for this team. They had BK, concessions, alliances, ATSB, and investors for cash up front. More relief from Pilots than anyother group for RJs to implement the answer to the LCC incursion. Only lame excuses we get from management now on why they didn't implement the plan they have "in hand" back when we emerged from BK.

Wolf was chairman of the board, and Buffet, Johnson, and the guy who owned 25% stake in U from Tiger Airlines (forget his name now) all voted to merge with United to "maximise shareholder value". That's what it is all about. Wolf's MO has always been "dress it up" and sell it. Read his history. U was no different and trust that Wolf had no affinity to U or its employees. Wolf kept his "distance" from Labor and had no attachements on that front. He was as disconnected as this management; only difference, you knew it up front with no facade, like this present managmemnt, who hides in sheeps clothing so your brain doesn't register "disconnect". Gangwal, who sat on the board at the time and was CEO had to implement that "agenda", at the bequeast of the BOD.

We as employees believe that Wolf was always looking to sell the airline when he first came here and took over from CEO Schofield. But if you remember, U did real well during those robust economic years from '95 to 2000, so no one complains when the "dog is winning".

 

[nycbusdriver]

Pitbull -

It's hard to believe that you have so much respect for Ed Colodny when you haven't even taken the time to see how is name is spelled. Don't you think?

 

[PITbull]

Pitbull -

It's hard to believe that you have so much respect for Ed Colodny when you haven't even taken the time to see how is name is spelled. Don't you think?

Ny,

No. I share your world... I'm an idiot just like you, can't write, can't spell, can't you tell by my 2,400 postings.

PS: What's hard to believe is if that's all you can find to attack, I'm doing pretty damn good.....

 

[nycbusdriver]

Pitbull -

It's hard to believe that you have so much respect for Ed Colodny when you haven't even taken the time to see how is name is spelled. Don't you think?

Ny,

No. I share your world... I'm an idiot just like you, can't write, can't spell, can't you tell by my 2,400 postings.

PS: What's hard to believe is if that's all you can find to attack, I'm doing pretty damn good.....

While you may be relegated to the world to which you refer, do not include me.

I CAN spell, without using a spell-checker.

I CAN write English properly. Interestingly, it takes no more time to write properly than it takes to torture the language. Of course, one must have some discipline to do it right.

The nuns, priests and Jesuit professors who educated me through 16 years of formal schooling have assured this result.

They also stressed the importance of getting proper names spelled correctly, and the judicious use of a dictionary

 

[TheLarkAscending]

Pitbull -

It's hard to believe that you have so much respect for Ed Colodny when you haven't even taken the time to see how is name is spelled. Don't you think?

Ny,

No. I share your world... I'm an idiot just like you, can't write, can't spell, can't you tell by my 2,400 postings.

PS: What's hard to believe is if that's all you can find to attack, I'm doing pretty damn good.....

While you may be relegated to the world to which you refer, do not include me.

I CAN spell, without using a spell-checker.

I CAN write English properly. Interestingly, it takes no more time to write properly than it takes to torture the language. Of course, one must have some discipline to do it right.

The nuns, priests and Jesuit professors who educated me through 16 years of formal schooling have assured this result.

They also stressed the importance of getting proper names spelled correctly, and the judicious use of a dictionary

Alrighty then - by his/her own admission Pitbull isn't the greatest at spelling or punctuation. However, that didn't stop you from attacking again.

Just for the record the news came out today that children accused more than 4,000 priests of sexual abuse between 1950 and 2002, according to a draft survey commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

I bet those kids can spell, though. :down: