US Pilots Labor Thread 2/16-2/23

[hp_fa]

Just for the sake of getting cliff notes of the west argument of DFR, and to see if I understand correctly. The west's claim to DFR is the fact that the NIC has not been implemented and or that USAPA's bylaws and or comments are basically that the NIC will not be implemented?

The short answer, as I understand it, is yes. In my opinion, were it not for the NIC issues, none of this would be occurring.

 

[souperfly]

Not speaking for underpants, but only the active list in a fully executed contract gets considered going forward. As an independent union, any potential merger with another union results in A-M proviso's.
Oh, don't forget, after careful consideration of our Nic mess, UAL-ALPA is going to force ALPA National back into a DOH/LOS based system...they've already started that ball rolling as they certainly can't risk a "Nic" event happening to them.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Underpants

My one concern is that in the event of another merger, what list will we use, the Nic may not apply in a new contract, but will it reappear in the next merger.

Or to put it another way, in the event of another merger with an ALPA carrier do we first integrate our lists and then vote for a CBA - or the other way around.

Makes a big difference.

1984,

I don't see it as much of a problem even with a merger with an ALPA carrier. New Federal law would require a seniority dispute to be heard by a Federal arbitrator using Allegheny Mohawk provisions. The Federal arbitrator would have authority to reorder the pre-existing lists unlike an ALPA arbitraitor who is prohibited from reordering pre-existing lists by ALPA merger policy.

There is no chance an ALPA carrier such as United would want to use the Nic list. The Nic list inverts seniority placing the youngest and most junior pilots at the top making them permanent career blockers for any older pilots.

underpants.

 

[Metroyet]

Disgusting.
And not fooling anyone.

Who? USAPA or the company?

 

[Metroyet]

There is no chance an ALPA carrier such as United would want to use the Nic list. The Nic list inverts seniority placing the youngest and most junior pilots at the top making them permanent career blockers for any older pilots.

underpants.

ALPAs obligation to "protect and defend" the final and binding seniority list is permanent. What you guys continually fail to understand is that nobody cares what anybody "wants" to do. Binding Arbitration exists because nobody can agree on the wants. It's over. NIC will be seniority list regardless of whom or what happens to the airline in the future ALPA or not.

 

[souperfly]

ALPAs obligation to "protect and defend" the final and binding seniority list is permanent. What you guys continually fail to understand is that nobody cares what anybody "wants" to do. Binding Arbitration exists because nobody can agree on the wants. It's over. NIC will be seniority list regardless of whom or what happens to the airline in the future ALPA or not.

You're suffering from the heat. Parker has told you via a PHX crew news, about 5 times now, that you all seem fond of ignoring what happened after he "accepted" delivery of the Nic award, namely, the parties: ALPA-West and ALPA-East, ceased to exist once USAPA was certified as the bargaining agent for ALL USAirways pilots.
And thusly, ALPA's obligation to you ended that fateful day in April. That you fail to understand this simple concept is troubling, to say the least.
Anyway, I hope Santa was good to you, I'm sure the Easter bunny enjoyed his visit, and all the other assorted fairy-tales you adhere to. If you listen closely, you may hear the stampede of the ALPA cavalry all racing up on white stallions with swords drawn ready for battle any day now. (Since they have a life-long obligation to race to your aid, and all.)

You're a funny guy.

 

[Metroyet]

You're suffering from the heat. Parker has told you via a PHX crew news, about 5 times now, that you all seem fond of ignoring what happened after he "accepted" delivery of the Nic award, namely, the parties: ALPA-West and ALPA-East, ceased to exist once USAPA was certified as the bargaining agent for ALL USAirways pilots.
And thusly, ALPA's obligation to you ended that fateful day in April. That you fail to understand this simple concept is troubling, to say the least.
Anyway, I hope Santa was good to you, I'm sure the Easter bunny enjoyed his visit, and all the other assorted fairy-tales you adhere to. If you listen closely, you may hear the stampede of the ALPA cavalry all racing up on white stallions with swords drawn ready for battle any day now. (Since they have a life-long obligation to race to your aid, and all.)

You're a funny guy.

If US Air merges with United, USAPA is doomed, (as if it isn't anyway ) The United and West pilots will simply overpower you in the same fashion the East did to the West. You will once again be an ALPA carrier...ALPA is still obligated to protect and defend the Nic. as ALPA is now back in the drivers seat.

You can pretend all you want that the Nic didn't happen. Reality will eventually catch up to you.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

If US Air merges with United, USAPA is doomed, (as if it isn't anyway ) The United and West pilots will simply overpower you in the same fashion the East did to the West. You will once again be an ALPA carrier...ALPA is still obligated to protect and defend the Nic. as ALPA is now back in the drivers seat.

You can pretend all you want that the Nic didn't happen. Reality will eventually catch up to you.

The Mid Atlantic case will likely result in the Nicalou list being permanently enjoined and it won't even on a dusty shelf at that point.

USAPA will be the representative body of the US Airways pilots and present a list that it certified to the arbitrator which will combine East and West pilots DOH. This process will be part of a legislatively required resolution, not an administrative function of any one union.

You assume that the possibility for a negotiated list does not exist and based on UAL current demographic, it may well be that no arbitration is required and DOH with the right C & R's is more palatable than a 5 year wonder pilot going senior to one of their 10-15 year pilots in a slotted list with limited fences.

Any list that has become part of single contract will complete East/West seniority integration and will be permanent and will be the only list and starting place, even with ALPA on the other side of the table in an arbitration.

 

[souperfly]

If US Air merges with United, USAPA is doomed, (as if it isn't anyway ) The United and West pilots will simply overpower you in the same fashion the East did to the West. You will once again be an ALPA carrier...ALPA is still obligated to protect and defend the Nic. as ALPA is now back in the drivers seat.

You can pretend all you want that the Nic didn't happen. Reality will eventually catch up to you.

I pretend nothing, Metroyet...it seems you do. And this post is quite a bit different than the previous one, don't you think? ALPA or no ALPA...permanent obligatory defense of Nic...etc etc...?
Better start petting the hair of your Cupie-doll that UAL and LCC merge...but even if they do, UAL-ALPA will be merging with LCC-USAPA....and A-M protocols are the law to follow...
Afterward, (the A-M governed seniority determination) I guess we can be ALPA, but that doesn't change anything regarding your beloved, albeit flawed, Nic list..ask me why: because you don't work for an ALPA carrier in this supposed merger.
How's that for reality?

 

[nic4us]

1984,

I don't see it as much of a problem even with a merger with an ALPA carrier. New Federal law would require a seniority dispute to be heard by a Federal arbitrator using Allegheny Mohawk provisions. The Federal arbitrator would have authority to reorder the pre-existing lists unlike an ALPA arbitraitor who is prohibited from reordering pre-existing lists by ALPA merger policy.

There is no chance an ALPA carrier such as United would want to use the Nic list. The Nic list inverts seniority placing the youngest and most junior pilots at the top making them permanent career blockers for any older pilots.

underpants.

Talk about jumping to conclusions.

First, we would have a vote to see who would be our bargaining agent, as P1984 notes big difference. If that CBA were to be ALPA, seniority would be merged according to ALPA merger policy, that would include the NIC.

Where you are making a jump is assuming there would be an arbitration at all. Perhaps with a reasonable group a solution could be reached in the negotiation or mediation phase.

 

[souperfly]

The Mid Atlantic case will likely result in the Nicalou list being permanently enjoined and it won't even on a dusty shelf at that point.

USAPA will be the representative body of the US Airways pilots and present a list that it certified to the arbitrator which will combine East and West pilots DOH. This process will be part of a legislatively required resolution, not an administrative function of any one union.

You assume that the possibility for a negotiated list does not exist and based on UAL current demographic, it may well be that no arbitration is required and DOH with the right C & R's is more palatable than a 5 year wonder pilot going senior to one of their 10-15 year pilots in a slotted list with limited fences.

Any list that has become part of single contract will complete East/West seniority integration and will be permanent and will be the only list and starting place, even with ALPA on the other side of the table in an arbitration.

Beautiful.
Read this one twice Metroyet.

 

[souperfly]

Talk about jumping to conclusions.

First, we would have a vote to see who would be our bargaining agent, as P1984 notes big difference. If that CBA were to be ALPA, seniority would be merged according to ALPA merger policy, that would include the NIC.

Where you are making a jump is assuming there would be an arbitration at all. Perhaps with a reasonable group a solution could be reached in the negotiation or mediation phase.

I guess you have been hibernating for the last 2 years...you work for a carrier represented by USAPA...no voting for representation will occur PRIOR to a merger. USAPA/ALPA....say it with me...USAPA/ALPA. Ergo, A-M provisions as according to law.
THEN, we vote on a single bargaining agent.
(wow, it's hotter out there than I thought...you have what Metroyet has))

 

[nic4us]

I pretend nothing, Metroyet...it seems you do. And this post a quite a bit different than the previous one, don't you think? ALPA or no ALPA...permanent obligatory defense of Nic...etc etc...?
Better start petting the hair of your Cupie-doll that UAL and LCC merge...but even if they do, UAL-ALPA will be merging with LCC-USAPA....and A-M protocols are the law to follow...
Afterward, (the A-M governed seniority determination) I guess we can be ALPA, but that doesn't change anything regarding your beloved, albeit flawed, Nic list..ask me why: because you don't work for an ALPA carrier in this supposed merger.
How's that for reality?

I am pretty certain we would vote on who the bargaining agent for the group is prior to seniority integration.

But who knows, maybe USAPA would be voted in just like they hoped when asked this very question when they came to Phoenix pre-election.

But, if they are voted out good luck convincing any other group of pilots at any airline anywhere that your bottom guy should now be senior to 80% of their entire group. And by the way your bottom guy is now our bottom guy if it is ALPA, cause the NIC would stick.

 

[souperfly]

Really?....So lets just pretend...you know, fantasy-style...you guys are good at that.
We merge with Virgin America (who has their own independent union...just like we do) Do you suggest that as soon as the two BOD's approve the merger, we both immediately vote on a single union...BEFORE anything else? If so, you are truly living in an alternate universe out there. No, VA and their union would be afforded protections under the A-M provisions regarding seniority...the merger would be finished up, and a vote would be run for a union. In that order. Anything else renders the new law regarding A-M proviso's moot.

 

[nic4us]

I guess you have been hibernating for the last 2 years...you work for a carrier represented by USAPA...no voting for representation will occur PRIOR to a merger. USAPA/ALPA....say it with me...USAPA/ALPA. Ergo, A-M provisions as according to law.
THEN, we vote on a single bargaining agent.
(wow, it's hotter out there than I thought...you have what Metroyet has))

I am completely aware of who I work for, and who is the pilot CBA at that carrier.

So you are saying we would work a seniority deal prior to a merger, get that out of the way first, and then the companies would be free to merge? Do not think they would want to wait around a couple years for your A-M arbitration to play out.

What happens if the company has no time to spare because of immenent liquidation as in our merger.