US Pilots Labor Thread 2/9-2/16

[Richard]

We have been remiss in changing topics weekly--so here's the new one.

And a reminder--please observe the rules of the board.

Thank you.

 

[Megasnoop]

Pi
I have said it before and will say it again, USAPA claims the harrassement stopped, and should have chalked it up as a win and dropped this thing. Many of the 18 did not even make web posts but were simply board members of AWAPPA.

The problem with this suit is it lumped some who may be guilty, at least it was their phone number that called the hotline, together with a larger number of completely innocent, and an open ended John Doe list of further witch hunting. An admission of guilt is not coming from this group.

Nic4, I think the number is 17 now, maybe less. I have said before and will say again, this should be over. Join, pay dues, pay the 5 cents/minute would do it for me. The point was made. The harassment stopped. Its a reasonable compromise. No one has to admit defeat. All can claim victory. You can spin it any way you want. Gloat all you want. Those who didnt jam the lines, dont have to pay the nickel. Suing fellow members in good standing doesnt sit right with me. Never did.
http://snooperVsRedBaron.fr


reply to NY-Guy:
Snoper,

One of the CLT reps was a former ALPA Capt rep., just not at the time of USAPA's election.
The problem with resolution, as I understand it, is that it would give the impression of admitting guilt. Many of the guys just made web posts, it did not rise to the level accused. It needs to be dropped.

Thanks for the fact check, Driver. So many Reps over the years. Ive said in at least 30 posts that it should be dropped, IF these guys just join, pay dues. How cheap can a solution be? No need for them to grovel with apologies either. Thats piling on. Just join, pay dues, pay 5 cents a minute. Ive tried to keep the insults to a minimum. Its time to end this. USAPA is offering a easy way out, where no one has to admit anything in public or maybe even in private. Ever seen the name of the West guy who settled out? As far as the legal costs? The West keeps telling us about their huge war chest. If true, then the West 17 (I can do math), wont be out too much. Funny, but the West rag Uturn was the first putting out join and drop. Some of their stuff is off-the-wall, but that one made some sense. We need to end this, but theres got to be some compromise.
Tiger1050, for you: I agree. Lets end this, but with a compromise where neither side has to admit defeat or fault, except 5 cents/minute. http://snooperotica.sw


Reply to Clueby4:
BTW, even if we lose the appeal, that only ends the Federal Court case. Dealing with a NC jury in state court is another issue.

Yeah. That you will also lose.

Hubris, Wood. You have no more idea than I do how a NC court would rule.

At 5 cents a minute, you are trying to rip someone off with a settlement offer (or stupid enough to actually be paying that much). This was a bully move, pure and simple. Next time, get a better lawyer. Or choose a better battle.

Wood, the phone calls stopped. We won that battle. I just hope we (both sides) dont lose the war. Time to end this, but it does take some compromise. One of your ilk already saw the handwriting on the wall. He joined, paid dues, paid 5 cents/minute. He was smart. Unless you are one of the 17, you need to back off opining what they should do.

That, and if Seeham thought he had a better chance in front of a state jury, he (presumably) would have taken it. You also assume (as our friendly Bus Driver from NYC did incorrectly last summer) that it'll get to a jury.

News flash, Wood, were doing the state thing and so far no dismissal there.

As an aside, if you really feel like the anonymous webboard evidence that Seeham put forth is good, I'd suggest that you anonymize your postings here at the IP level and have used a throwaway account for registration.

Wood, you totally lost me there. Im not a IT nerd. No clue how to do what your talking about.

See the irony? If you believe USAPA has a case, then you also believe that the Cactus 18's counsel can track your butt down for discovery and go after USAPA for malicious prosecution (I'm assuming Barratry, in North Carolina, is reserved for maritime activities).

Cactus 17, I believe. Im no legal scholar either, but I can pilot an A330 or a 330 foot 3-masted Barque. I stick to what I know. And what I know is this toxic battle needs to end so we can go after our mutual foe, Team Tempe. Ill accept the results of the Addington DFR, win or lose. Will you?
http://snoop@airbus.fr

 

[nic4us]

At the close of the last thread we were discussing commuting. I am interested in the effects opening bases might have on the group as a whole and how many would be interested in a change of domicile.

Something like 50+ % of the West commutes. Although most come in from western states ( CA,CO,UT,WA,TX) a good portion come from the midwest and/or east of the mississippi.

I have met east pilots from SAN,SNA,SFO,PHX + Santa Barbara and Oceanside. Basically, 50/50 Captain F/O mix.

Recently, in the last few months, my F/Os have included commuters from ATL,CLT,PHL,IAD and TPA.

So, show of hands, who wants to move, and from where to where?

 

[nic4us]

Megasnoop,

I am glad you feel we should get the Cactus 18 situation over. However, there are more than 17, USAPA added I believe 6 0r so names to the John Does bringing the original number up to around 24. I do get your point though, 1 made restitution. Probably one of the very few who used their own phone number to do the calling.

 

[Phoenix]

....

So, show of hands, who wants to move, and from where to where?

You have to ask?

 

[Ardenian]

However, there are more than 17, USAPA added I believe 6 0r so names to the John Does bringing the original number up to around 24.

The calibre of this stuff makes me long for the days when we played whack-a-mole with USA320 for fun...

Sorry, had to say it.

 

[cleardirect]

Megasnoop,

I am glad you feel we should get the Cactus 18 situation over. However, there are more than 17, USAPA added I believe 6 0r so names to the John Does bringing the original number up to around 24. I do get your point though, 1 made restitution. Probably one of the very few who used their own phone number to do the calling.

For the record.

There are 124 defendants in the RICO case. 18 individual pilots, 6 DOB members of AWAPPA and 100 John Does.

One did not make restitution. The gentleman that was released paid nothing. His “crimeâ€￾ was a web post. He signed no agreement. The way he was released was he attended the PHX meeting, got in Bradford’s face confronted him and Bradford flinched. I have spoken to this guy. The statement from Bradford was we will look at what you did. If it was only web post we will consider dropping you. Within the week he received a dismissal with prejudice. This guy did not make a phone call or pay anything or agree to anything. He was simply dropped.

 

[cleardirect]

In case anyone forgot what the actual charges were. The page numbers lead to the actual charges in the first amended complaint. Along with the prayer for relief. That is what they were asking for. Now ask yourself. All of the things that usapa and the east pilots have been complaining about were covered in the TRO. Why was that not the first and only legal filing? Other then intimidation what was the purpose for filing conspiracy and racketeering charges. Simply to run up the damages so usapa could intimidate the defendants with huge legal bills and a possible financially destructive judgment.

Look at the list of charges. Where was anyone charged with mailing feces? Can’t find it? Never charged anyone with that little thing. It was only put in there for effect. No proof, no name, no charges. Only shock factor.

So after all of the money wasted. The ill will created. The damages done. Now we are down to usapa begging for someone to admit that they did something wrong to justify their rant. Willing to settle for some admission of guilt and less then $700.00. Pathetic, truly pathetic.

East pilots, this is your leadership at work. How much longer are you going to allow them to take you and the west down the wrong road. Think back and remember what they told you about this case. Now compare that to the reality of the situation today. Think back and remember what your leadership told you was going to happen with the Nicolau award. Compare that to the actual award. Now look forward and remember what they told you and are telling you about the DFR suit. Go back and look at the updates where they tell you that the case has no merit. Given the track record so far. Do you still believe the usapa leadership? If so why?

Federal Charges:
COUNT ONE
Violation of Section 1962© of the Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations
Act (“RICOâ€) (Against All Defendants)................................................38
COUNT TWO
RICO Conspiracy (Against All Defendants).............................40

State Charges:
COUNT THREE
Violation of Section 75D-4 of the North Carolina Racketeer Influenced and
Corrupt Organizations Act (“NC RICOâ€) (Against All Defendants)................42
COUNT FOUR
NC RICO Conspiracy (Against All Defendants)..................................................44
COUNT FIVE
Violation of Section 75-1.1 of the North Carolina Unfair and Deceptive
Trade Practices Act (Against All Defendants)...........................................................
.....46
COUNT SIX
Trespass to Chattels (Against Defendants AWAPPA, McIlvenna, Vasin, Blandino
Ferguson, Koontz, Payne, Kreuger, Auxier, Cundari, Tooke, Braid, Narloch, Hannah, Casby, Abbott, and Maree)................................................................
............................................48
COUNT SEVEN
Tortious Interference With Contractual Relations (Against All Defendants)..............................50
COUNT EIGHT
Civil Conspiracy (Against All Defendants)...........................................50
COUNT NINE
Defamation (Against AWAPPA)...............................................................
................51
COUNT TEN
Defamation (AgainstAllDefendants)................................................
...........................................53
COUNT ELEVEN
Claim for Punitive Damages N.C. Gen. Stat. § 1D-15 (Against All Defendants)......54

PRAYER FOR RELIEF
WHEREFORE, Plaintiff, US Airline Pilots Association, respectfully requests that this Court:
1. Enter an order temporarily restraining and preliminarily and permanently enjoining the defendants from engaging in the following extortionate and illegal acts:

• Sabotage of USAPA’s toll-free telephone information line;

• Sabotage of USAPA’s toll-free safety line;

• Use of profane, indecent, and threatening language over the telephone;

• Threats of physical and economic retaliation against those who wish to participate in the activities of USAPA;

• Filing of frivolous grievances designed to waste the assets of USAPA;

• Actions, including threats to safety, designed to induce the mass breach of the collective bargaining agreements’ agency shop provisions by the pilots or to induce a breach of these provisions by US Airways.

• Denials of the use of the cockpit jump seat to USAPA members based solely on their status as USAPA members or East pilots.

• Unlawful use of the U.S. Postal Service.

2. Enter an order requiring defendant AWAPPA LLC to post a notice on its website, www.awappa.org, and take such steps as shall be necessary and appropriate to carry into effect the substance and intent of paragraph 1 of this Prayer for Relief.

3. Award the plaintiff damages against the defendants, jointly and severally, including punitive, exemplary, and compensatory damages, in the full amount permitted under the law.

4. Award the plaintiff costs and attorneys’ fees incurred in this action.

5. Award the plaintiff further relief that the Court considers just and proper.

 

[hp_fa]

There are 124 defendants in the RICO case. 18 individual pilots, 6 DOB members of AWAPPA and 100 John Does.

The real number is 24 defendants. The John Does are fictitious people that are named in case evidence is developed that would cause them to be within the scope of the action. Somewhere in the complaint will be a paragraph that says something like "John Does 1-100 are fictitious and if identified leave of court will be sought to add them to the Complaint as named defendants."

 

[Metroyet]

The real number is 24 defendants. The John Does are fictitious people that are named in case evidence is developed that would cause them to be within the scope of the action. Somewhere in the complaint will be a paragraph that says something like "John Does 1-100 are fictitious and if identified leave of court will be sought to add them to the Complaint as named defendants."

Semantics. Who Gives a Damn what the "letter of the law" says. Here is the real intent and interpretation of the 100 "john Does" is from the BPR Ministry of Retribution:



Intimidation 101. They thought they could hide behind the RLA and threaten and punish with impunity. The BPR was whipped into a frenzy of ecstasy over this very idea that they were now in 100% charge of this half-scuttled ship and they thought they could run rough shod over any perceived adversary...guess what? USAPA FAILED, (should be getting used to those words)

$100+K of union dues down drain for an unwinable, frivolous lawsuit and these idiots keep on beating the war drums as if anyone is still listening...Keep on payin' up suckers.

 

[cleardirect]

Nic4, I think the number is 17 now, maybe less. I have said before and will say again, this should be over. Join, pay dues, pay the 5 cents/minute would do it for me. The point was made. The harassment stopped. Its a reasonable compromise. No one has to admit defeat. All can claim victory. You can spin it any way you want. Gloat all you want. Those who didnt jam the lines, dont have to pay the nickel. Suing fellow members in good standing doesnt sit right with me. Never did.
http://snooperVsRedBaron.fr

Just to review. 11 charges were filed against 124 people, 18 individuals. RICO, accusations of mailing feces, intimidation, threats of physical violence, several other charges. But now we have come to what this was really about. .05 per minute and intimidation. Have you done the math on what the total collected would be? Of all the listed calls it is less then $700.00. Did Bernie Madoff suddenly become the financial advisor for usapa . They spend well over $100,000 to try and collect $700.00. Take it to small claims court.

Let’s take a look at what happened and what snoop is saying.

In the neighborhood if the local “neighborhood protection society†shows up at the family bodega and demands 10% of the shops take for “protection†or maybe something bad happens to the store or the family. That is called extortion. That is illegal. But according to snoop. When a union files a $5 million dollar law suit against each individual then demands that they “Join, pay dues, pay the 5 cents/minute would do it for me. “ The 1.95% tribute to the union is perfectly fine. That is not extortion. If all you wanted was to stop the harassment then simply file a restraining order. Not file a $5 million law suit. It you only wanted the west to join and pay offer something of value for those dues. Not extort or intimidate through the courts.

So what is it? What was the worst thing that happened to usapa that caused the filing of this law suit? Was the $700.00 worth of phone calls that was going to collapse usapa? Could you point out the law that limit’s the number of phone calls to an 800 number? What exactly is that number? Was it the web postings on a private board that now do not owe any money that could have caused all of the problems?

Thanks for the fact check, Driver. So many Reps over the years. Ive said in at least 30 posts that it should be dropped, IF these guys just join, pay dues. How cheap can a solution be? No need for them to grovel with apologies either. Thats piling on. Just join, pay dues, pay 5 cents a minute. Ive tried to keep the insults to a minimum. Its time to end this. USAPA is offering a easy way out, where no one has to admit anything in public or maybe even in private. Ever seen the name of the West guy who settled out? As far as the legal costs? The West keeps telling us about their huge war chest. If true, then the West 17 (I can do math), wont be out too much. Funny, but the West rag Uturn was the first putting out join and drop. Some of their stuff is off-the-wall, but that one made some sense. We need to end this, but theres got to be some compromise.
Tiger1050, for you: I agree. Lets end this, but with a compromise where neither side has to admit defeat or fault, except 5 cents/minute. http://snooperotica.sw

Here is the problem. “No need for them to grovel with apologies either.†The only people that should be apologizing is usapa. They were the ones that messed up. Again you either misunderstand, do not know the facts or are intentionally lying about the gentleman that was released. He did not settle, he did not agree to anything. He was simply released because he confronted Bradford and the rest in person and they flinched.

Out of the 18, 11 of them made no phone calls. No monetary damages. Yet all were charged with all of the crimes and damages of $5 million dollars. I am still confused how phone calls to an informational hotline. That usapa encouraged people to call. Now is criminal and worthy of a law suit and intimadation.

Compromise, there is that word again. When the Nicolau came out you wanted the west to comprise, give up something for the east. Now you want the defendants to compromise and agree to the changed resolution and admit guilt. If they did nothing wrong why admit guilt? Where is the compromise from usapa? They lost the case. They are going to lose the appeal. What do the defendants gain by admitting guilt? Again you speak of extortion. “Just join, pay dues, pay 5 cents a minute†If you would only do that usapa will not destroy your financial future. We will not label you a criminal for the rest of your life. Pay up and we will not burn down your business. What is the difference?

Wood, the phone calls stopped. We won that battle. I just hope we (both sides) dont lose the war. Time to end this, but it does take some compromise. One of your ilk already saw the handwriting on the wall. He joined, paid dues, paid 5 cents/minute. He was smart. Unless you are one of the 17, you need to back off opining what they should do.

That is the second time that you told someone to back off if they were not involved. What is your stake in this witch hunt? Do you just not like ideas contrary to yours being aired? Everyone can express their opinion why the desire to shut down the debate? Beside usapa charged 100 John Does. That makes every west pilot a potential defendant. So every west pilot has a stake and a right to voice their opinion.

Check your facts snoop. The gentleman that was released did not make phone calls he did not pay .05 per minute. He did not pay or sign anything. Usapa released him with prejudice unconditionally. Nothing was signed nothing was agreed to. Why not do that for all of the named defendants?

News flash, Wood, were doing the state thing and so far no dismissal there.

You see this is what irritates us west guys the most. You east guys want to have it both ways in every argument.

Let me get this straight. Usapa lost in federal court and spent well over $100,000 pursuing individual pilots. That was not good enough they decided to waste more money in the appeals court. But then they say that they did not lose, it was just in the wrong venue. But instead of going to that venue they appeal in federal court where you just admitted that it was improper.

Usapa is getting political pressure from it’s own members to drop this case. They offer up some lame excuse for a settlement. Pay .05 cent per minute admit something the they are not able to prove and we move on. But now you are saying that usapa wants to also continue the fight by filing in state court. Does that make sense to anyone? Usapa is looking for a way out why file state charges? Other then a weak threat.

But feel free to file. Any timeline on when that might be filed? There is nothing in the court so far.

 

[cleardirect]

The real number is 24 defendants. The John Does are fictitious people that are named in case evidence is developed that would cause them to be within the scope of the action. Somewhere in the complaint will be a paragraph that says something like "John Does 1-100 are fictitious and if identified leave of court will be sought to add them to the Complaint as named defendants."

Of course you are correct. However when you read the charges and the rhetoric coming from usapa and here. All of the more vulgar and dramatic “crimesâ€￾ where attributed to the John Does. Usapa used them as unnamed defendants to shift the focus and hide the true purpose of the law suit. The actual charges of the named defendant had nothing to do with what usapa was complaining about.

 

[jetjok1]

Semantics. Who Gives a Damn what the "letter of the law" says. Here is the real intent and interpretation of the 100 "john Does" is from the BPR Ministry of Retribution:



Intimidation 101. They thought they could hide behind the RLA and threaten and punish with impunity. The BPR was whipped into a frenzy of ecstasy over this very idea that they were now in 100% charge of this half-scuttled ship and they thought they could run rough shod over any perceived adversary...guess what? USAPA FAILED, (should be getting used to those words)

$100+K of union dues down drain for an unwinable, frivolous lawsuit and these idiots keep on beating the war drums as if anyone is still listening...Keep on payin' up suckers.

Metroyet,

I'm mostly a lurker reading all posts, responding on occasion (as I have responded to you for name calling- mongoloid if you forgot) and it seems the name calling continues. You have a lot of pent-up anger in your posts. Metro- A suggestion (like the moderators keep saying) drop the name-calling.It serves no purpose. You can make a point, relay a message, show your position, without the descriptive adjectives. I don't recall any of the other west pilots needing to resort to this type of posting. We need to come together at some point and , frankly, you're going in the opposite direction.

 

[supercruiser]

The actual reason USAPA acted was to get the perpetrators to stop those actions, and a warning to anyone else thinking of doing the same. I'd say that was 100% successful. Do you think it would have stopped if they had only sent out a strongly worded letter?

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

That quote would seem to be mild compared to both East and West posts.