US Pilots Labor Thread 2/9-2/16

[lynyrdskynyrd]

The actual reason USAPA acted was to get the perpetrators to stop those actions, and a warning to anyone else thinking of doing the same. I'd say that was 100% successful. Do you think it would have stopped if they had only sent out a strongly worded letter?

RRRiiiiiiiiiiggggghhhhhhhht.

 

[cleardirect]

The actual reason USAPA acted was to get the perpetrators to stop those actions, and a warning to anyone else thinking of doing the same. I'd say that was 100% successful. Do you think it would have stopped if they had only sent out a strongly worded letter?

A TRO is more then a strongly worded letter. Why was that not tried first, instead of a $5 million law suit?

But then again when USAPA asked for the TRO the judge saw it for what is was. An overreaching unenforceable invasion of personal liberties.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

A TRO is more then a strongly worded letter. Why was that not tried first, instead of a $5 million law suit?

But then again when USAPA asked for the TRO the judge saw it for what is was. An overreaching unenforceable invasion of personal liberties.

Oh come on clear direct, you know darn well those web posts had to stop. 🙄

 

[cleardirect]

Oh come on clear direct, you know darn well those web posts had to stop. 🙄

You are right. In the dictatorial world of USAPA any dissent or counter thought to the party line most be squashed. All communication must be controlled.

 

[cleardirect]

It came from Bradford and King so it must be true.

Our endorsement of Doug is based on his integrity, experience, and knowledge. It is also based on our similar interest in moving forward in a realistic fashion towards the completion of a new working agreement for our pilots. This is important from the standpoint of getting our pilots out from under LOA 93, of giving our seniority proposal a place to live, and most importantly improving our working lives in a positive way. Industry consolidation is still coming. It may be temporarily delayed by the credit crisis, but it will come with a passion in a short time. Perhaps 2009 will be that year. We as a union need to move ahead towards being prepared for this and other possibilities.

How many times have we heard that Freund called the Nicolau seniority list a proposal? Well here we have Bradford and King calling the made up dream list of USAPA DOH only a proposal. Are you guys sure that the USAPA list is not what they have been talking about? Not the Nicolau list.

This is quite a change by USAPA. We have gone from USAPA being able to impose a DOH list because it is the right of the union to do what they want. To negotiated seniority like a crew meal. The company does not care what the list looks like. To now it is only a proposal. A proposal that USAPA has admitted the company has not even acknowledged.

The DFR law suit that USAPA said had no merit is working it’s way through the court. Looking at the judges order and having Seham admonished a couple of times. Is it me or does USAPA’s promise of DOH seem to be getting farther away?

 

[GuntherA320]

It came from Bradford and King so it must be true.


How many times have we heard that Freund called the Nicolau seniority list a proposal? Well here we have Bradford and King calling the made up dream list of USAPA DOH only a proposal. Are you guys sure that the USAPA list is not what they have been talking about? Not the Nicolau list.

This is quite a change by USAPA. We have gone from USAPA being able to impose a DOH list because it is the right of the union to do what they want. To negotiated seniority like a crew meal. The company does not care what the list looks like. To now it is only a proposal. A proposal that USAPA has admitted the company has not even acknowledged.

The DFR law suit that USAPA said had no merit is working it’s way through the court. Looking at the judges order and having Seham admonished a couple of times. Is it me or does USAPA’s promise of DOH seem to be getting farther away?

Dude.....why are you so angry? It is what it is. It will be what it will be. Until a contract is voted in by the pilot group ANY seniority list is a proposal. Whatever list is used will be part of the next contract. The courts may...or may not decide what that proposal will be. Eventually this will all be settled. But it isn't going to be today. You being angry at the union and the east pilots is not going to settle this either. The majority of us are just pilots. Your angry posts do nothing to change any east pilots minds. Your tirades and rants actually do the opposite. They galvanize both sides. Try taking some deep breaths. Maybe some yoga or meditation.

 

[cleardirect]

Dude.....why are you so angry? It is what it is. It will be what it will be. Until a contract is voted in by the pilot group ANY seniority list is a proposal. Whatever list is used will be part of the next contract. The courts may...or may not decide what that proposal will be. Eventually this will all be settled. But it isn't going to be today. You being angry at the union and the east pilots is not going to settle this either. The majority of us are just pilots. Your angry posts do nothing to change any east pilots minds. Your tirades and rants actually do the opposite. They galvanize both sides. Try taking some deep breaths. Maybe some yoga or meditation.

What part do you consider angry?

 

[GuntherA320]

What part do you consider angry?

Perhaps the fact that 8 of the last 16 posts are yours. Some would consider that ranting. I personally did not get anything constructive out of any of your last 8 posts. They just keep bashing the union and the east pilots over and over and over. The tone i get out of them is "See how right we are and how wrong you are". Eventually over time, your posts just become "noise". My dad used to say, "You get more flies with honey than vinegar." Personally I have reached out to a couple of west pilots when i had the chance. We've had some drinks....shared some laughs.....and maybe one day all of us will see that most of us on both sides aren't that different.

 

[Megasnoop]

Metroyet,

I'm mostly a lurker reading all posts, responding on occasion (as I have responded to you for name calling- mongoloid if you forgot) and it seems the name calling continues. You have a lot of pent-up anger in your posts. Metro- A suggestion (like the moderators keep saying) drop the name-calling.It serves no purpose. You can make a point, relay a message, show your position, without the descriptive adjectives. I don't recall any of the other west pilots needing to resort to this type of posting. We need to come together at some point and , frankly, you're going in the opposite direction.

Amen, Jet. For Clear, Clue, Metro, et al, same old misrepresenting the facts, nitpicking based on OLD information. USAPA has offered the olive branch. The PHX 17 turned it down. And so it goes. Clear says well fail in the FEDERAL court appeal. Maybe we will. But lawsuit was dismissed on venue and jursdiction. State court is stll an option. Now the West Rep, who obviously doesnt understand what his handlers are writing, is telling West pilots not to join, pay dues and settle out. While I still say join, pay up and forgive, like many of us back east, my patience is getting thin.

CACTUS 18 RESOLUTION

After briefly speaking with some of the defendants in this case, I believe that none of them are willing to entertain the current settlement agreement with USAPA for two reasons. First, the litigation has already essentially failed, and is just awaiting the final word from the appellate court. Therefore, there is nothing to be gained by the defendants from entering into a settlement agreement. Second, even if a settlement was desirable, it could not include an undue admission of criminal activity, when in fact, there was none. Typical settlement agreements do not require either party to admit fault, and the continued insistence of this admission only serves as a deterrent for reaching a settlement.

I stand by my comments last week that the ghost-written LeCarre resolution was crammed with inaccuracies, misstatements and fighting words. heres a USAPA update. Sorry for the length, but you West guys need to hear the entire truth, repasted with permission of MY union (I dont know how to "link" this):

USAPA Correction To Domicile Updates
February 11, 2009​

Recent PHX/LAS Updates contained certain inaccuracies that require some clarification. We will address these in the order they appear in the update.

“… lawsuit that was maliciously filed.†This statement is untrue and may be defamatory. The RICO suit is looked at in different ways East and West. The West pilots may see the actions suffered by this union after its certification as isolated cases by individuals who engaged in some childish behavior. From USAPA’s perspective it was a coordinated attack on our communications infrastructure. In fact, the lawsuit was defensive in nature, the harm being suffered included: 1) telephonic systems, including the safety hotline, were being rendered inoperative, 2) USAPA electronic communications were being jammed, 3) West pilots who wished to participate in USAPA were being threatened with physical violence, economic retaliation (e.g., no-fly lists) and harassment in their homes. The filing of the lawsuit was preceded by requests that AWAPPA take action to prevent the acts of sabotage. Following this request, one of the directors of AWAPPA posted a message contradicting attorney Jeff Freund’s calls for restraint.

“…the named defendants are accused of doing nothing more than making web-board posts.†In fact, jamming telephonic and electronic communications, threats of physical and economic retaliation to subvert federal rights to engage in union activity, and federal felonies related to the postal system, were all part of this complaint.

“…The suit has already been dismissed with prejudice.†As to the dismissal “with “prejudice†– it only related the single federal cause of action based on technical grounds. Indeed, for the purposes of his decision, the judge assumed that all of USAPA’s criminal allegations – jamming, threats of violence, postal felonies – were true. He simply determined that the related causes of action should be litigated in state court.

“… primarily based upon unsubstantiated web-board posts and prank calls.†See comments above. Simply untrue. Moreover, the avowed purpose of the “prank calls†was to make them in such volumes as to financially damage USAPA.

“…USAPA’s lead counsel Lee Seham directly contacted each of the individual defendants in the case (despite the fact that they were all represented by attorneys), to encourage them to sign settlement agreements under the duress of being faced with large legal bills and suffering substantial individual financial harm if they did not.†This sentence appears to allege that Lee Seham contacted individuals, whom he knew to be represented by counsel, to discuss settlement. If this is the intended communication, then it is defamatory. Lee Seham prefaced each contact with the inquiry as to whether the defendant had counsel. If the answer was affirmative, the call was terminated.

“The settlement agreements would have required the defendants to pay USAPA large sums of money, admit to crimes that they did not commit, and to promise to perjure themselves in a court of law by testifying against their fellow pilots.†The settlement offers were either no-cost or low-cost. The cost of settlement was typically tied to a charge of 5 cents per minute for frivolous phone calls to the USAPA 877 line with a token payment for USAPA attorney’s fees. The monetary component of one typical offer was in the amount of $750. These were opening offers, but none of the represented defendants ever made a counter-offer.

The allegation that defendants were asked to perjure themselves is defamatory. Defendants were only asked to admit to incidents that were traceable to them through e-mail postings bearing their respective names or telephonic abuse traced to telephones they utilized.

Since the first offer was made, the Board has since passed a resolution dropping any request for payment beyond actual damage done and even that is limited to a maximum of $500; many would probably pay less.

“…Despite the overwhelming evidence in favor of the defendants…†The truth is that the evidence was never analyzed so there is certainly no “overwhelming evidence in favor of the defendantsâ€. Indeed, all of plaintiffs’ allegations concerning defendants’ criminal and otherwise unlawful conduct were taken to be true. For the most part, the federal court assumed that the defendants were indeed guilty of criminal misconduct, but dismissed the case based on its determination that jurisdiction over such matters resided with the state court. The court’s assumption was based on the case’s procedural status – in the context of a motion to dismiss, the court is generally obligated to assume the truth of the allegations. One experienced defendant attorney actually pronounced himself to be “offended†by the activity related to the safety hotline.

“I was repeatedly encouraged to either withdraw or modify my resolution by Committee and/or other Board members.†The fact is that the PHX Rep was encouraged to bring his resolution; he was asked to consider modifying some language in the preface of it solely to make it more palatable and therefore increase its chances of passage. This is the same type of discussion that often goes on amongst Board members.

“as (a) maneuver to usurp my resolution, another domicile introduced a substitute resolution which is the one currently posted on the USAPA website.†In the spirit of compromise it is routine for alternative resolutions to be offered. The resolution proffered and passed is a 99% solution.

“…requires the defendants to voluntarily admit to committing crimes that they did not commit, and to pay for damages that they did not cause.†Regretfully, this statement is completely false. The settlement offer requires such ONLY in those cases where the proof is irrefutable.

But to put this in prospective, Eric and Dave did nothing more than refuse to take a loyalty oath to the great ALPO and they were removed. LeCarre? Let him rant. If he continues with these ghost-written fantasies, he will lose all credibility.
http://snoopercell.gov

 

[Fully Cross Utilized]

USAPA has offered the olive branch.

How can requiring an admission of guilt from people who maintain their innocence (and whose innocence is presumed until proven otherwise) honestly be considered an olive branch?

 

[fodase]

How can requiring an admission of guilt from people who maintain their innocence (and whose innocence is presumed until proven otherwise) honestly be considered an olive branch?

Because its usaplala land.

 

[luvn737s]

Why, after lo these many months, has USAPA decided to have an election for national officers concurrent with local reps? Could it be that USAPA doesn't want the west to get too organized and put up a candidate for president? Could it be that someone like LeCarre could develop a following among east pilots and in concert with west pilots, threaten the choke hold that the USAPA insiders currently enjoy? Why no provision for "write-in" (or it's electronic equivalent) candidates?

 

[ClueByFour]

While I still say join, pay up and forgive, like many of us back east, my patience is getting thin.

Your patience does not matter, really. This is the best shot USAPA had, and it went stupid to try to bully around some of it's members. Stupid begets more stupid, and now USAPA has essentially backed itself into a hole.

You forgot--you took a shot at the West, and have had the hindquarters handed to yinz on a platter, thus far. All signs point to that trend continuing.

Now, let's have a look at the BradforDrivel (tm) of the evening:

The West pilots in question, having been sued by their own union and thus far absolutely won, would be foolish to settle. From USAPA’s perspective it was a coordinated attack on our communications infrastructure.

If that meager volume of phone calls constituted a "coordinated attack," USAPA is not competent. The volume of calls in question would not bring down a decent midsized PBX, much less something set up to take a decent number of calls. Tell people "you can call Sully at USAPA" would generate more telephonic traffic that the Cactus 18 are accused of. It's kid stuff, and, more importantly, it's easily technically defeated.

This was all about trying to push people around, not actually defend against anything. Whomever wrote as such is either lying thru their teeth, hiring incompetent help, or both.

Indeed, for the purposes of his decision, the judge assumed that all of USAPA’s criminal allegations – jamming, threats of violence, postal felonies – were true. He simply determined that the related causes of action should be litigated in state court.

Two big lies here:

First, for the purposes of the proceeding in question, the judge is compelled to assume the truth of the allegations.

Second--there is no criminal activity until a court of proper venue says as such when brought on a charge by a state's attorney or US attorney in the form of an indictment or criminal complaint and then the accused are found guilty by a jury of their peers. USAPA is filing a civil action.

Waiting eagerly for that state court filing. USAPA does not have a prayer, because if it did it would be filing in that venue, not appealing the federal court's order and reducing the settlement offers at the same time.

I said in July and I will say it again: the US Attorney's office for the Western District of North Carolina knows the law on this score. That they have taken no action is illustrative.

 

[Megasnoop]

Perhaps the fact that 8 of the last 16 posts are yours. Some would consider that ranting. I personally did not get anything constructive out of any of your last 8 posts. They just keep bashing the union and the east pilots over and over and over. The tone i get out of them is "See how right we are and how wrong you are". Eventually over time, your posts just become "noise". My dad used to say, "You get more flies with honey than vinegar." Personally I have reached out to a couple of west pilots when i had the chance. We've had some drinks....shared some laughs.....and maybe one day all of us will see that most of us on both sides aren't that different.

You got this angry westie pegged right, Gunther. Clear has been spewing his brand of commentary ever since ALPO got voted off the island. Wouldn't be surprised if hes one of LeCarres ghost writers. Maybe hes getting pressure from his group or just using his right to issue updates to campaign. Heres some more of LeCarre exposed. Again, with permission. With resolutions like this, I hope he doesnt get a second.

USAPA Correction To Domicile Updates
February 11, 2009​

“West pilots initially decided not to join or pay dues to our new Union.†By so doing they gave up the benefits of membership; exactly what happens in all unions.

“However, in order to receive this financial assistance, pilots were required to be members in good standing with USAPA prior to their furlough. As a consequence, most of the furloughed pilots and soon to be furloughed pilots from the West were not eligible for this assistance.†This statement is pure hypocrisy. No pilot who wanted to become a member has been denied membership. Furloughs were announced in June of 2008 and the vast majority of these were to occur in September and beyond. There was plenty of time to become a member so as to receive possible benefits. To-date, we have approximately 60 members in PHX and only 5 in LAS. East pilots would be paying for the medical benefits of 175 furloughed West pilots; West pilots who voluntarily chose to not join the union. There are 175 proposed West pilot furloughs that would be supported by 70 West pilots. The remaining funds would come out of the pockets of East pilots.

“That this proposal would do nothing to increase the current assessment.†A true but misleading statement. What the PHX Rep failed to mention was that the Furlough Committee believes, and discussed with the Board (including the PHX Rep), that if more pilots are added to the pool without increasing the assessment, the pool will likely run out of money, depriving all furloughed pilots from any meaningful assistance.

“the assessment figure was based on what the Board believed the pilots would be willing to pay, not based on the number of potential furloughs.†The assessment was based on past history at US Airways East. Yes, it is based on what active members are willing to pay. It is not a token gesture, and the amounts collected represent the best estimate of what the actual costs would be. The furloughed pilot medical program was and is not designed to be open-ended. USAPA has no way to predict future furloughs or just how many pilots will participate in the program. The ability to get into this program was based on membership in good standing which has been open to everyone regardless of their domicile. USAPA has been criticized for accepting applicants by voting at the BPR level as opposed to the domicile level, but this action shows how far the Association went to be sure applicants were voted-in in a timely manner. If any potential furloughed pilot were to have applied s/he would have been immediately accepted for this program. To-date, USAPA has not denied membership to any non-management pilot on the US Airways East or West list. Many have submitted applications attempting to add onerous terms and conditions to their membership but they have all been accepted into membership.

“Board intends to push this resolution to membership ratification (although that is not necessary)…†Membership ratification is required for the purpose of the PHX Representatives resolution and for the Philadelphia Vice Chairman’s resolution. The PHL Vice Chair submitted a resolution to include those pilots on EVLA to be included in the pool of pilots who could qualify for furloughed pilot medical benefits. Assessments are to be for specific purposes and to change the population for a given assessment, as both resolutions mandated, would require that the pilots be balloted again for their consent to this change.

The Phoenix Chairman’s resolution requires balloting by membership because his population of non-member furloughed pilots cannot become active members, according to our Constitution. They are furloughed and according to Article II, Section 2, (E) and (f) of the USAPA Constitution and Bylaws, they are not active members as mandated by the original assessment. Since they were not members in good standing when they were furloughed how do they become members in good standing while on furlough? This change of status would require balloting of the pilots and would change the original intent of the assessment. If the motion were to offer COBRA benefits to all furloughed and EVLA pilots, the amount on the assessment would be constant but the benefit levels would be significantly less. East pilots would be paying for the medical benefits of 175 furloughed West pilots.

On the last point, I posted exactly that last fall: join and your protected. Since the initial furloughs were for those on probation, they didnt have to pay a cent. But the PHH mob kept the new-hires, pilots who had no dog in the NIC fight, from joining.
http://snooperspook@cia.org

 

[traderjake]

The majority of us are just pilots.

The majority of us are just pilots trying to steal your jobs.

Now can't we all just get along.