US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/18-6/23-Stay on Topic and Observe the Rules

[wopr21]

Well, I hate to stir things up, but yesterday I had two east jumpseat riders on my flight from PHX who were both denied J/S on west metal earlier in the day.

In one case, the west captain would not even come out of the cockpit, but instead sent his F/O to inform the rider that he could not go.

PHX C/P showed up on the scene and - well the outcome was the same.

Tell me again which group ia angry and full of rage again, I forgot?

If a captain is so stressed over the east/ west situation that he can't even put aside political issues to get a fellow pilot to work, he himself has violated FAR's and should take some therapeutic cleansing and renewing time off.

I'm just say'n

wopr

 

[EastUS]

If a captain is so stressed over the east/ west situation that he can't even put aside political issues to get a fellow pilot to work, he himself has violated FAR's and should take some therapeutic cleansing and renewing time off.

Indeed. One hates to even imagine how any such easily "stressed" individuals would react in actual emergencies aloft......

 

[Megasnoop]

I was comfortable with their presentation and strategy that day. That is NOT what NIC was given for whatever reason and here we are.

As an objector I only got a peak of one presentation. The mood I got was if we offer an extreme, the arb will split the baby. Never happened. He treated it more like baseball arbitration where both sides make their case and he chooses A or B. Nicola telegraphed his feelings. We ignored.

All that being said, I never envisioned an award that so effectivly ended the careers of so many F/Os destroying ALL chances of them ever upgrading. But even though East played a big part in it, it doesn't make it any easier to swallow. These things are rarely fair, but seldom do they do so much harm to those who have suffered for so long. Driver B)

Thats the bad part of this, destroying upgrade chances, literally 35 years as F/O. Anyone who thinks ALPA de-cert was strictly about the NIC doesnt know how many voted against ALPA based on how bad our ALPA MEC/MC screwed this up as well as how bad they screwed up our pensions and LOA93.


BB, NYC,

Ive got to agree with you both as well. Watching it all unfold from the cheap seats (as an ALPA objector), I could see the arrogance coming through. One thing about mob mentality, it takes on a life of its own. The MC almost got ridden on a rail after their comments DOH not being in the ALPA merger policy. As I said earlier post 277, “Pure DOH was so off the wall. DOH with some restrictions and protections might have ruled, but the MEC was too afraid to explain that. Even (Dxx’s) CLT LEC buddies went along with that.â€

Ironic that Kirch ended up on the East MC for this integration, forced to fight for an outcome he didn't believe was attainable. Jim

Don’t give him a pass, Jim. MCs are independent during arbitration. If Kirch, or any thought they couldn’t get the MEC fantasy, they should have resigned. Eventually, we’re going to come out of this, I doubt with pure NIC. With a win on LOA84, unless the West wants to drag out separate operations for the next 20 years, separate ops are a real possibility without compromises. New-hires and recalls will all be fighting for East assignments for the higher pay. But who do we negotiate with? 6 “Class†members, all junior with their own axes to grind? Their BPRs? Theres no NMB-certified group out west to talk to.

Like our MC/MECs extreme DOH position, AOLs extreme take-no-prisoners approach wont get them where they want to be. A judge saying you got to use the NIC doesn’t make a contract happen. They got $$ problems, LOA84 problems and attention span problems. With counts 1&2 lost in arbitration, thye got no damages. No damages=no $$ to pay attorneys. If there is a solution to this, it will come from some unexpected source or outside influence. No conventional way I can see to solve this. We're "bi-polar."

No matter what west rhetoric, you cant blame USAPA, Cleary, Seham or Bradford. USAPA was the reaction, not the cause. It was created by a flawed ALPA merger policy, arrogant MEC/MC

 

[nycbusdriver]

Like our MC/MECs extreme DOH position, AOLs extreme take-no-prisoners approach wont get them where they want to be. A judge saying you got to use the NIC doesn’t make a contract happen. They got $$ problems, LOA84 problems and attention span problems. With counts 1&2 lost in arbitration, thye got no damages. No damages=no $$ to pay attorneys. If there is a solution to this, it will come from some unexpected source or outside influence. No conventional way I can see to solve this. We're "bi-polar."

No matter what west rhetoric, you cant blame USAPA, Cleary, Seham or Bradford. USAPA was the reaction, not the cause. It was created by a flawed ALPA merger policy, arrogant MEC/MC

I could not agree more with this statement. I really think it's prophetic, and the only way out of it is an outside source. None of the current players will solve this.

 

[nic4us]

Well, I hate to stir things up, but yesterday I had two east jumpseat riders on my flight from PHX who were both denied J/S on west metal earlier in the day.

In one case, the west captain would not even come out of the cockpit, but instead sent his F/O to inform the rider that he could not go.

PHX C/P showed up on the scene and - well the outcome was the same.

Tell me again which group ia angry and full of rage again, I forgot?

Sorry to hear this happened,

I recently granted a js request to a dca based pilot who lives in phx on a dca-phx flight. Knowing phx-dca-phx is exclusively West metal, I point blank asked him if he had been denied any js request, figuring he is using West metal weekly. He replied that he was aware it was happeening on both sides, but so far everyone had been accomodating and that he had not been denied.

This is a catch 22 problem for the chief pilots. JS is at captain discretion, and I will defend the captains authority to deny a jumpseat, even though I think it is petty and counterproductive to abuse that authority for political purpose, and I believe this is the situation the chief pilots are in also.

Just one insight, the captain who sent the F/O to deny was probably willing to let the guy ride and his F/O may have been the problem, so a reluctant delegation of authority may have occured i.e. " you do not want him up here you go tell him why". I do not think it is wise for an F/O to hijack captain's authority to make a political statement. Also, I do not think it is an abuse of the no-fly provision, to seperate yourself from future flightdeck conflict.

 

[Captain Underpants]

But who do we negotiate with? 6 “Classâ€￾ members, all junior with their own axes to grind? Their BPRs? Theres no NMB-certified group out west to talk to.

Snoop,
Negotiations over seniority with the West won't work because any West group given authority to negotiate would be seen as a threat, tarred and feathered and strung up from the nearest Cactus by their feet as an example.

The solution is simple...give the West pilots (USAPA member or not) a vote on any seniority integration proposal from USAPA. Given the alternative of indefinite separate ops as the TA requires any seniority integration proposal will eventually be approved by a majority of rational West pilots. The question is only how long does it take. The economic gains of integration because of East attrition are too high for rational West pilots to give up.

There is no DFR and no basis for further East/West conflict if the West voluntarily gives up the Nic via democratic vote. The East pilots have already decided Nic will not ever be acceptable. Now let the West pilots decide when they are ready to integrate and what is fair for them.

underpants

 

[BoeingBoy]

Don’t give him a pass, Jim. MCs are independent during arbitration. If Kirch, or any thought they couldn’t get the MEC fantasy, they should have resigned.

What you present is a Hobson's choice - either resign because they couldn't honestly represent the pilot group's wishes or be fired for ignoring the group's wishes. What happens when the next candidates come forward for MC duty? They either don't get the job because they can't advocate what the pilots demand or also get fired for not advocating the pilots' demands. So the group ultimately end up with a MC that tries to get what the pilots' are demanding they get - that's the only realistic outcome of the process.

You can't have it both ways - representatives who protect the group from themselves while being completely responsive to the groups wishes. That's why I've unwaveringly said that it's the pilot group that makes the union and not the reverse. If the pilot group demands reps (MEC/BPR/MC/ect) that do the groups bidding, that's what they'll get for better or worse. If the group wants to be protected from shooting themselves in the foot, that's the representation they'll get.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

I could not agree more with this statement. I really think it's prophetic, and the only way out of it is an outside source. None of the current players will solve this.

Outside players are all ready involved. That would be the federal court system. The remedy should be released this week. Then the ball will be in usapa's court how do they react? Do they comply or do they reject a federal order?

There seems to be an attitude that a DFR and remedy is some sort of slap on the wrist. That it will be no big deal.

I think the east pilots are going to be shocked and upset by the results. Again!

One other outside influence would be a merger. Care to calculate your chances of getting anything other then Nicolau with a merger?

 

[Metroyet]

Like our MC/MECs extreme DOH position, AOLs extreme take-no-prisoners approach wont get them where they want to be. A judge saying you got to use the NIC doesn�€™t make a contract happen. They got $$ problems, LOA84 problems and attention span problems. With counts 1&2 lost in arbitration, thye got no damages. No damages=no $$ to pay attorneys. If there is a solution to this, it will come from some unexpected source or outside influence. No conventional way I can see to solve this. We're "bi-polar."

AOL is protecting their legal rights. As distasteful and repugnant as it is to the East, The West Pilots have absolute rights under the Law. Rights that are under a full frontal assault from your fake union. I believe a Jury of 9 already explained this to you. If asserting ones rights equates to a Pirate like "take no prisoners" approach to you then so be it. I guess you should be shopping for Condo's in Iran or North Korea or some other dictatorial garden spot where reality can be altered by the whims and moods of the Supreme Leaders, (BPR). As far as Cash problems are concerned...show me proof. I don't see any signs of financial distress. The legal team has been paid in full every month since day one and as I write this, the team is working hard for our cause. Also, the damages trial starts in August. It remains to be seen what the $$$$ payout looks like. However, I will again remind you, your side has already been found liable and damages are simply a matter of time. Reimbursement of legal fees is a common award where liability has been established. That fact alone ought to give you pause...it won't, but it ought to.

In fact, all I see a well funded, unified group of people...a certified class of people that have MORE than withstood the unending barrage that has been thrown at them from every direction. Again, reference the Jury's decision if you have any lingering doubts about the potency of the West pilots. "Attention span problems"...that's funny. The West has been mopping the legal floor with the East from day one and every indication says that the punishment will continue. Not bad for a bunch of bankrupt, daydreaming, inexperienced whipper-snappers. I won't bore you with unmasking the LOA 84 fantasy either...you've already swallowed that false hope as deeply as Sehams other Lies and deceptions. So, in short, everything you assert above is so flatly wrong and baseless it is laughable in the extreme. You are confusing a fanciful hope with reality, a psychological problem frequent to the common Easterner.

Barring Ch. 7, the Courts will settle this. It may be "unconventional" to you, but that's exactly what they are there for. Your perception of "bi polar" does not interest the court in the slightest fraction and the West will enjoy the full benefit of their legal rights no matter how long, how expensive, or how bloody your side chooses to make this. You guys chose your path and the "outside influence" you reference above is exactly where YOU chose to go...Federal Court. Shocking to me that you can't see that and still hold out hope for some kind of "alternate" outside influence. What are you expecting...the Super Friends down at the Hall of Justice?

God Bless America.

 

[cleardirect]

Snoop,
Negotiations over seniority with the West won't work because any West group given authority to negotiate would be seen as a threat, tarred and feathered and strung up from the nearest Cactus by their feet as an example.

As usual you have the situation 180 degree turned around. It was the east pilots that were going to string up the MC or MEC if they wavered from DOH.

Usapa took the legal authority away from the west when they were voted in. No one on the west can negotiated. So you are stuck with what the court tells us.

The solution is simple...give the West pilots (USAPA member or not) a vote on any seniority integration proposal from USAPA. Given the alternative of indefinite separate ops as the TA requires any seniority integration proposal will eventually be approved by a majority of rational West pilots. The question is only how long does it take. The economic gains of integration because of East attrition are too high for rational West pilots to give up.

What part of “there is no vote on the seniority listâ€￾ do you not understand? There is a vote on a complete contract package. NOT a list.

Now turn your question around to meet reality. How long does it take or when will the rational east pilots vote for a contract that includes the Nicolau list? That will be the vote.

There is no DFR and no basis for further East/West conflict if the West voluntarily gives up the Nic via democratic vote. The East pilots have already decided Nic will not ever be acceptable. Now let the West pilots decide when they are ready to integrate and what is fair for them.

The DFR is here to stay. That happened. Nothing short of the court of appeals can change that. There will be no vote giving up the Nicolau. There is no mechanism for that.

An arbitrator decide what was fair. The federal court decided that usapa has not been treating the west fair. We decided the Nicolau is acceptable. The company has decided the Nicoalu is acceptable. It will be the east pilots choice if a contract with the Nicolau is worth it as a total package.

Your move.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Outside players are all ready involved. That would be the federal court system. The remedy should be released this week. Then the ball will be in usapa's court how do they react? Do they comply or do they reject a federal order?

There seems to be an attitude that a DFR and remedy is some sort of slap on the wrist. That it will be no big deal.

I think the east pilots are going to be shocked and upset by the results. Again!

The federal court system won't solve this. They are a "current" player already, so I included "current" players in my statement.

How will USAPA react? First reaction is quite clear: 9th Circuit. Other than that, how will the east pilots react? Depending on the outcome, you may be stuck with your current compensation package for many years to come until the east retirements again kick in. Wake cannot simply rewrite a new contract for us, and then impose it.

I think the east pilots are going to be shocked and upset by the results. Again!

Like 700UW said: Don't count your chickens before they're hatched. Federal judges have a propensity to surprise.

And if the east pilots are "shocked and upset," then so be it. Time for the next move, whatever that may be.

What are the west pilots, and Judge Wake, going to do if the MDA federal lawsuit finds the Nic list fraudulently presented and accepted? What if that judge sets aside the Nic list by injuction?

 

[cleardirect]

The federal court system won't solve this. They are a "current" player already, so I included "current" players in my statement.

How will USAPA react? First reaction is quite clear: 9th Circuit. Other than that, how will the east pilots react? Depending on the outcome, you may be stuck with your current compensation package for many years to come until the east retirements again kick in. Wake cannot simply rewrite a new contract for us, and then impose it.

The east is placing a lot of stock in your pay rate snapback. If that does not happen. Odds close to 100 %. Then guess what? You also remain at your current rates and scheduling nightmare.

Like 700UW said: Don't count your chickens before they're hatched. Federal judges have a propensity to surprise.

And if the east pilots are "shocked and upset," then so be it. Time for the next move, whatever that may be.

What are the west pilots, and Judge Wake, going to do if the MDA federal lawsuit finds the Nic list fraudulently presented and accepted? What if that judge sets aside the Nic list by injuction?

I would put those odds close to zero. For so many reasons. One reason being a trial is at least 9-12 months off. If it even survives that long.

As I said before. I think the MDA guys are in for another disappointment.

 

[Tiger 1050]

AOL is protecting their legal rights. As distasteful and repugnant as it is to the East, The West Pilots have absolute rights under the Law. Rights that are under a full frontal assault from your fake union. I believe a Jury of 9 already explained this to you. If asserting ones rights equates to a Pirate like "take no prisoners" approach to you then so be it. I guess you should be shopping for Condo's in Iran or North Korea or some other dictatorial garden spot where reality can be altered by the whims and moods of the Supreme Leaders, (BPR). As far as Cash problems are concerned...show me proof. I don't see any signs of financial distress. The legal team has been paid in full every month since day one and as I write this, the team is working hard for our cause. Also, the damages trial starts in August. It remains to be seen what the $$$$ payout looks like. However, I will again remind you, your side has already been found liable and damages are simply a matter of time. Reimbursement of legal fees is a common award where liability has been established. That fact alone ought to give you pause...it won't, but it ought to.

In fact, all I see a well funded, unified group of people...a certified class of people that have MORE than withstood the unending barrage that has been thrown at them from every direction. Again, reference the Jury's decision if you have any lingering doubts about the potency of the West pilots. "Attention span problems"...that's funny. The West has been mopping the legal floor with the East from day one and every indication says that the punishment will continue. Not bad for a bunch of bankrupt, daydreaming, inexperienced whipper-snappers. I won't bore you with unmasking the LOA 84 fantasy either...you've already swallowed that false hope as deeply as Sehams other Lies and deceptions. So, in short, everything you assert above is so flatly wrong and baseless it is laughable in the extreme. You are confusing a fanciful hope with reality, a psychological problem frequent to the common Easterner.

Barring Ch. 7, the Courts will settle this. It may be "unconventional" to you, but that's exactly what they are there for. Your perception of "bi polar" does not interest the court in the slightest fraction and the West will enjoy the full benefit of their legal rights no matter how long, how expensive, or how bloody your side chooses to make this. You guys chose your path and the "outside influence" you reference above is exactly where YOU chose to go...Federal Court. Shocking to me that you can't see that and still hold out hope for some kind of "alternate" outside influence. What are you expecting...the Super Friends down at the Hall of Justice?

God Bless America.

Metro,
These guys are eyeball deep in their fantasy world. Just look at some of the statements here. Snap-back, err... Sorry it's "Reinstatement" now. Snoop like to refer to it as "reinstitute." LOL! I can't even find that word in the dictionary! Judges order = suggestion. That one had me laughing pretty hard too. Or Wake's order will be impotent! We'll just enjoy separate ops into the eternities. Quite arrogant considering Judge Wake will no doubt ensure his order is complete and without ambiguity. Pursuing our legal rights will result in our own demise. Hmmm. These guys have no idea what asses they look like making statements like this. All one needs to do is take a quick look at their history, their woe-is-me history and ask what the common denominator is. THEMSELVES!!!!!

 

[ableoneable]

If a captain is so stressed over the east/ west situation that he can't even put aside political issues to get a fellow pilot to work, he himself has violated FAR's and should take some therapeutic cleansing and renewing time off.

I'm just say'n

wopr

The jumpseat should be open to all. I tell my FOs that it was a hard won privilege and placing it in danger over the seniority debacle is not something I am prepared to do.

I should point out, however, that several east posters on this board have stated that east and west will never be able to safely share a flightdeck.

Either it is safe and acceptable or it is not. If you believe that we can never safely fly together you have no business complaining about the jumpseat.

 

[Tiger 1050]

What are the west pilots, and Judge Wake, going to do if the MDA federal lawsuit finds the Nic list fraudulently presented and accepted? What if that judge sets aside the Nic list by injuction?

Weren't all the counts but one thrown out? Basically all the MDA folks can do now is go after damages. Something about statute of limitations....