US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/30-7/7 KEEP ON TOPIC-NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[Richard]

Folks,

Time for another pilots' thread. Some of you who decided not to heed our request to observe the rules of the board will be sitting this week and next out in the cornfield. If anyone else cares to join them, feel free to make personal attacks/comments/insults, or post inflammatory material or just cause trouble.

Everyone knows that passions are great on both sides of this dispute--but all the bickering on here is not going to solve anything--those who perpetuate this do a disservice to their profession and their side of the dispute.

That said, discuss the TOPICS all you want, do NOT discuss the POSTERS---

and have a happy safe 4th!

 

[hp_fa]

and have a happy safe 4th!

And to you sir, and everyone else here.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

And USAirways management file bankrupts twice and HP ones as a cowardly way to get out of a commitments.Its business as usual airline style

Not even an argument. Chapter 11 or liquidation, its about keeping a company alive. East made an agreement with the company and with the west, and they failed to keep their agreement, purely because of their greed and sense of entitlement.

And, of course you know what happened in court? 🙄

 

[EastUS]

.....purely because of their greed and sense of entitlement.

Interesting viewpoint. Would you say such an observation might possibly befit the ONLY employee group that refused to honor date of hire when the airlines were "merged"?..and demanded special, preferential treatment instead? 🙄

 

[nic4us]

Interesting viewpoint. Would you say such an observation might possibly befit the ONLY employee group that refused to honor date of hire when the airlines were "merged"?..and demanded special, preferential treatment instead? 🙄

The pilots were not the only employee group to reach a seniority integration by arbitration. Would you say the east pilots are the only group entitled to ignor an arbitrators decision, and demand preferential treatment?

 

[EastUS]

The pilots were not the only employee group to reach a seniority integration by arbitration. Would you say the east pilots are the only group entitled to ignor an arbitrators decision, and demand preferential treatment?

So then..what other groups merged ignoring date of hire?....None?

If an arbitrator ever tells you to forget all you believe in and jump off a bridge....would you?

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

The IAM historically has always used dovetail which is one for one, but the pilots seniority is sorta differant than any other group when you consider the way they bid and get paid.

In any merger at US did the pilots always use DOH or never used DOH?

PSA, PI, and TS, how were they done?

 

[Metroyet]

The IAM historically has always used dovetail which is one for one, but the pilots seniority is sorta differant than any other group when you consider the way they bid and get paid.

In any merger at US did the pilots always use DOH or never used DOH?

PSA, PI, and TS, how were they done?

That's a dirty little secret that the East would rather not talk about....

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not too big a secret. PI and PSA mergers went by DOH with conditions and restrictions in the PI case (don't know about the PSA merger). Shuttle was much like this merger - relative position by aircraft class/seat. I honestly don't remember off the top of my head whether it had C&R's or not.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

(don't know about the PSA merger).

Date of hire, period.

 

[Megasnoop]

Agreed. I believe the sum total of the "move on" west (MoveOn.West?) 😉 nonsense is directly related to their realizing that, and just trying to pretend instead that the addington business is "over", any/all appeals will, with 100% certainty of course, prove utterly futile/etc, and we should all just lay down and play dead now. Doing that will at once, of course, make everything "better" for the east people...in some entirely undefinable way. Oh!...I almost forgot = East failure to instantly lay down and play dead will result in huge personal expenses from imaginary "damages". 🙄

Step 2 is to constantly proclaim that LOA93/84 represents a completely futile effort, so why not just sign off on nic yesterday?

When all that's proven out as utterly ineffective propaganda...the next step's to fantasize "an industry leading contract" that's supposedly, almost immediately available (as opposed to laughable)....so..just sign up for nic here 😉

The most recent bit, where the west is going to immediately dominate the union/replace everyone, and change the entire platform and agenda into an AWA Uber Alles one's at least an amusing twist.

East, you’ve got their strategy all pegged. Time is not on their side, so they try to erode our morale. They don’t want this to play out, because if it does, they may lose. They got serious $$ problems paying their attorneys now that counts 1&2 are gone. And this replace USAPA? What a joke. Unfortunately a joke fed by our own ALPA hanger-ons who long for the good old days of FPL and not working.

So far, from what I gather, the West pilots don't seem to be breaking down any doors. Also, the current USAPA crowd has just been voted in so they have awhile to go on there current terms. Finally, and most damning, the East folks don't seem to like to recall people so that there wouldn't appear to be any real pressure to be applied to the BPR members.

“USAPA crowd, most damning, voted in so they have awhile.†Sorry, hp, I think everyone knows your alleged “neutrality.†Just like your west buddies, you don’t want the appeal and LOA84 to play out. Because if it does run its course, USAPA could win.

That'll be changing as the remedy sets in. This has been an emotional process and it takes a lot of thought to break through the emotion. A year ago USAPA was the worst thing that could ever have happened to the West. But the remedy changes everything as the idea that propelled USAPA into existence has been obliterated. Staying on the sidelines for a West pilot makes little sense at this point.

If that's true, then the Group II captains will be pissing away 30k-50k a year for the rest of their careers. But if enough of them just pay dues along with all of the West pilots, then there's a majority. One out of four East pilots is all it will take.

Your right on one thing (only). Staying on the sidelines doesn’t make sense. Not paying dues/MX fee makes less sense. Don’t pay, your fired. Your sides posts are all aimed at the same thing: try to reduce morale and get the NIC implemented in a single contract before the 9th circuit reviews it. Sorry, Aquaman, that wont happen. This 30-50k myth you guys keep bringing up? ALPA couldn’t put together a contract in 2 years, what makes you think USAPA will in 1? The company is still arguing about costing models. We’re good, but not that good.

If you want to hold onto that fantasy, have at it. But I predict that enough of the pilot group will see the reality. I'm sure the Trump Shuttle and Empire guys see USAPA for what they are. I can also say for sure than most of the East pilots commuting from the west coast want a change.

Not until the Appeal and LOA84 play out. Ill grant you this, IF we lose LOA84 payrates AND the appeal, their may be a single contract within the next 5 years. Otherwise, if we win either of the above, you guys need to come up with a plan B. BTW, Breeger got dismissed. Not ripe.

You see, the problem for USAPA and their acolytes is that all of their lies are being exposed. USAPA lied to the Trump Shuttle and Empire piots, they lied to the captains by assuring a quick contract because USAPA is breaking the stalemate, and now USAPA is lying about LOA 84. The Kirby by itself would mean $2,500 more for each group II captain, but we also know from Stephan's testimony that the company would have signed Kirby plus 8%. I don't know about you, but that's a fair amount of money. And now two years of those wage increases have been thrown away just to let you and your like to play with your legal fantasy.

Trump and Empire? What lie? In case you notice, their DFR got dismissed. Not exactly ripe yet. But if YOU get your appeal win, it’ll never be ripe. So you guys will be sinking the poor Empire/Trump pilots, all 40 of them. My heart goes out. Promised a quick contract? Lets see some documentation on that. The Kirby by itself would have meant $2,500/month to a few, but not the many. But its long off teh table. don’t blame USAPA for the Kirby not being passed. Put blame where blame belongs: ALPA. There the ones who broke off negotiations, not USAPA. For me, I’ll sit back and let the appeal and LOA84 play out. Most (maybe 90%) of us will.

Time is not on your side.

Oh yes it is.

 

[Beancounter]

Interesting viewpoint. Would you say such an observation might possibly befit the ONLY employee group that refused to honor date of hire when the airlines were "merged"?..and demanded special, preferential treatment instead? 🙄

Please correct if I'm wrong. Wasn't the stance before the arbitration DOH including the furloughed pilots. Meaning if there was to be hiring/recalls a furloughed pilot would come back and suddenly be half way up the seniority list. That was the way a union rep had explained it to me. Has any previous merger that went DOH not put the furloughed pilots at the bottom of the list? Not flamebait, I really don't know.

 

[john john]

East made an agreement with the company and with the west, and they failed to keep their agreement, purely because of their greed and sense of entitlement.

USAirway make an agreement with all vendors property management and labor groups
And US fail to kept there agreements, union are about representing the majority of there membership with gold standards

 

[john john]

The pilots were not the only employee group to reach a seniority integration by arbitration.

Please explain

 

[EastUS]

Please correct if I'm wrong. Wasn't the stance before the arbitration DOH including the furloughed pilots. Meaning if there was to be hiring/recalls a furloughed pilot would come back and suddenly be half way up the seniority list. That was the way a union rep had explained it to me. Has any previous merger that went DOH not put the furloughed pilots at the bottom of the list? Not flamebait, I really don't know.

By no means do I take that as flamebait, but as reasonable questioning. The following is my personal opinion as to how that should have been handled = Factor length of service as the determinant where those furloughed were concerned, versus those working. I saw no perfect solution to that problem, and couldn't personally espouse taking anyone out that was working, in favor of anyone who's performed work contribution was less, nor could I see any ethical case for entirely dismissing the previous work and service done by those then on furlough.

The "local" previous mergers weren't burdened with the issue of having furloughed pilots to factor into the equations. This was pretty much "new turf" to tread...and I feel both sides handled it badly.