US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/30-7/7 KEEP ON TOPIC-NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

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john john

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Sep 12, 2004
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This reminds me of that scene in Austin Powers when Dr. Evil admonishes his son,

"You Just don't get it, do you Scott?"
I get it you’re the only union employee group on the property that doesn’t GET IT
And it and it and it and it
 
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EastUS

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.....and not the conditions to transfer expectations to the east,....

But the underlying basic principle that USAPA seeks is not "unionism" or "career expectation", it is east protectionism at the expense of the West.

1) Is it not fairly observed that the entire west position is based upon your group wishing to "transfer" your own personal expectations out into east-brought flying?...especially recently, as the west continues to shrink? If that's not true = What's this whole nic business actually about?

2) We'll agree to differ there, and will likely do so for life. I can't honestly understand any who are so willing and eager to usurp "seniority" from others...others who's actual seniority, via years worked, sacrifices and contributions to corporate survival clearly far exceed there own...period/always/end-of-story. Anytime I've personally been involved in any merger;It's been my earnest and heartfelt belief that the guys/gals who were "there" longer, should properly be placed ahead of me. Those that worked less= behind...Pretty simple really. To my thinking; wishing for anything else smacks only of the purest self interest and opportunism. Our philosophies therein are diametrically opposed it seems....and...here we are.
 

luvthe9

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Aug 30, 2002
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Uhhhhh....You will take what the court orders, pay what damages the court sees fit, negotiate a joint contract in good faith (or face further financial penalty). Perhaps that may include the 70 million held in trust until a new contract is ratified.
I don't think there will be a joint contract or that you will ever see the nic on the property, I bet will be split apart by the end of the year, most evey one knows the situation here will never work, gonna get interesting around, all these years of squabbling and paying lawyers for nothing.
 

skyflyr69

Senior
Dec 11, 2002
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Uhhhhh....You will take what the court orders, pay what damages the court sees fit, negotiate a joint contract in good faith (or face further financial penalty). Perhaps that may include the 70 million held in trust until a new contract is ratified.


Sorry, LOA 84 and lump sum has NOTHING to do with the courts actions. Just wait.....TIC TIC TIC.
:up:
 

traderjake

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:rolleyes:

1) Sorry, but I'm not the least bit interested in a west job.

DO you or do you not want a DOH seniority list that would furlough a thousand West pilots before the bottom active East (before the merger) gets furloughed?

You personally may not want their jobs but you do want to take their jobs from them and give them to East pilots who could not hold the equivalent job on the East side.

That is theft.
 

cleardirect

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May 24, 2008
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So arbitrations never become apart of a CAB? So the nic is just sitting out there waiting for a transition agreement? Can a federal judge in Arizona demand nic to be put in place indefinitely? FOREVER FOREVER Taking away all bargaining negotiating rights under the RLA
I am not sure where you are getting your information. But whoever you are listening to, you need to stop.

Of course arbitration becomes part of a CBA (not a CAB). You might recall the Kagel Award from 1988. It is still in the Nicolau award. Maybe you have your terms mixed up. What the Nicolau award is waiting for is a tentative agreement, not a transition agreement. A tentative agreement goes to a vote. Yes any tentative agreement will include the Nicolau award forever and ever. The Nicolau award or more accurately the seniority list that will be used will also be the seniority list that will be used as the list if we go into another merger.

Judge Wake did not take away any bargaining right. Usapa is free to bargain the rest of the CBA anyway they see fit to get it passed. When the east and west agreed to binding arbitration. That is when the right to bargain seniority went away. The only thing that Wakes’ injunction is going to do is require usapa to live up to and use what all of the us airways pilots agreed to. Whatever Nicoalu decided.
 

john john

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Yes any tentative agreement will include the Nicolau award forever and ever. .
So it is your belief that all arbitration awards become part of the CBA under the RLA for ever and never can be taking out under any circumstances
 

cleardirect

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May 24, 2008
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1) Is it not fairly observed that the entire west position is based upon your group wishing to "transfer" your own personal expectations out into east-brought flying?...especially recently, as the west continues to shrink? If that's not true = What's this whole nic business actually about?
The entire west position is that we will live with whatever the arbitrator decided. The west did not build the list. Unlike usapa. We, both sides submitted our best case to a third party neutral. HE decided. That is our position, that is the position of the federal courts and as soon as the final injunction is released. That will be the position of usapa and all of the east pilots that the Nicoalu list is the list that we be used.

2) We'll agree to differ there, and will likely do so for life. I can't honestly understand any who are so willing and eager to usurp "seniority" from others...others who's actual seniority, via years worked, sacrifices and contributions to corporate survival clearly far exceed there own...period/always/end-of-story. Anytime I've personally been involved in any merger;It's been my earnest and heartfelt belief that the guys/gals who were "there" longer, should properly be placed ahead of me. Those that worked less= behind...Pretty simple really. To my thinking; wishing for anything else smacks only of the purest self interest and opportunism. Our philosophies therein are diametrically opposed it seems....and...here we are.
Yes we all know your opinion of how seniority lists should be put together. How about you go to school get all of the credentials needed to become an arbitrator. That way whenever you are selected you can make it very easy on yourself and the two parties. No need to put on an expensive litigation. Both sides can decide to use you and they will know ahead of time what the list will look like. Until the time that you are an arbitrator. This list is done. It is time to let it go. The Nicolau list will be used there is no need wasting any more time discussing it. How or why we are where we are. We are at the end.
 

hp_fa

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Feb 19, 2004
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So it is your belief that all arbitration awards become part of the CBA under the RLA for ever and never can be taking out under any circumstances

Do you have any examples of a seniority intra-union arbitration that weren't permanent?

BTW, that seniority award does not restrict future integrations from being done according to, in this case, the USAPA constitution. However it does not allow the USAPA constitution to be in force regarding the previous seniority arbitration under ALPA merger policy.
 

cleardirect

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May 24, 2008
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So it is your belief that all arbitration awards become part of the CBA under the RLA for ever and never can be taking out under any circumstances
Maybe you missed a little event that happened in PHX during April and May. It was a trial where usapa was found liable for DFR. With that comes an INJUNCTION. We are now past arbitration. Private arbitrations do not carry the weight of federal law. An injunction does.

Again you are confusing terms. That injunction, the one that says that the Nicoalu is the seniority list. The injunction that says that usapa has to use that list, that they can not negociate separate contracts. The injunction that says usapa must now defend that list.

Yes the injunction for the list becomes part of the CBA Forever and forever and forever…. Unless you or usapa can convince the judge or 1800 west class members to give that up. It can never be changed under any circumstances.

Is it starting to become clear just how serious and set in stone losing a DFR is? Is it beginning to sink in that binding arbitration has consequences?
 
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EastUS

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DO you or do you not want a DOH seniority list that would furlough a thousand West pilots before the bottom active East (before the merger) gets furloughed?

You personally may not want their jobs but you do want to take their jobs from them and give them to East pilots who could not hold the equivalent job on the East side.

That is theft.
[/quot

1) Should any thousand pilots be furloughed..I'd guess that this mess would be in it's last death throes, and liquidation would be imminent. On a more rational basis: It's my feeling that, given the nic nonsense, seperate ops should be maintained, and let any/all furloughs fall from whichever side they may. After all...isn't it supposedly all based on what was "brought to the merger"?

2) "You personally may not want their jobs.." You're right. I don't. Ah..the light finally comes on for you..at least a little bit! Should seperate ops be maintained, or had the USAPA idea of protecting the west from east bidding in; well..how does your supposed scenario have even the least merit?

3) Complete and utter BS. Your definition of "theft" must be an interesting derivative indeed....
 
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EastUS

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QUOTE (EastUS @ Jul 7 2009, 10:06 AM) *
1) Is it not fairly observed that the entire west position is based upon your group wishing to "transfer" your own personal expectations out into east-brought flying?...especially recently, as the west continues to shrink? If that's not true = What's this whole nic business actually about?

The entire west position is that we will live with whatever the arbitrator decided.

How about you go to school get all of the credentials needed to become an arbitrator.

1) Yes. I believe that's what I essentially said in the above post you're replying to. The west wil be "righteously" pleased to live with whatever gives you the nic gift, and would afford you all merry access to east positions that none of you could have had otherwise. Spin it as you wish, and don't forget to ladle on a few heavy cups full of "Righteousness" and "Integrity" :lol:

2) Why bother? Clearly; anyone can assert themselves as "The Great and Powerful OZ!". All that's needed there is to have a sufficiency of utter fools that are so ready and willing to accept such "wisdom" as valid :rolleyes:
 
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