USAirways pilots labor thread 7/23-7-29

[LSS]

The initial version of LOA 93 was far superior to the current LOA you labor under. Your tough guys thought they could do better with the bankruptcy judge (against ALPA's recommendation) and were put in their place.

When they went running back to the table, the original offer was gone.

Nobody's fault but your own.

HP, further it's my recollection in both bankruptcies most of the other labor groups fared far better than the pilots, and some of them told the company to take a hike before hand.

 

[Phoenix]

HP... it seems that the same ALPA loyalists who were spinning the BS then (the "get a deal, any deal... go to the ask" crowd), are whispering in your ear... and you've bought into it as well!... Don't feel too bad though, there was a time when 57% in the east believed the BS as well!

Bought into it so far that I thought he was an ALPAphile from the East, until I read his handle, ...then I was completely tricked back into acknowledging a really smart west guy.

 

[HPDriver]

HP... it seems that the same ALPA loyalists who were spinning the BS then (the "get a deal, any deal... go to the ask" crowd), are whispering in your ear... and you've bought into it as well!... Don't feel too bad though, there was a time when 57% in the east believed the BS as well!

DH says something else but you just go on blaming others for your own mistakes.

Nothing new for you guys.

 

[HPDriver]

... in both bankruptcies most of the other labor groups fared far better than the pilots...

Gee, what a surprise.

Let me guess, it was National's fault.

Then it was Nicolau's fault.

Then it was Wake's fault.

And so on...

 

[captainJack]

The initial version of LOA 93 was far superior to the current LOA you labor under. Your tough guys thought they could do better with the bankruptcy judge (against ALPA's recommendation) and were put in their place.

When they went running back to the table, the original offer was gone.

Actually, you are wrong. The commonly quoted "initial version" was replete with blank pages - blank checks for the company to fill in. Ask anyone who was there and not your ALPA wannabes.

Contrary to ALPA's desires, by waiting, the last version was much less concessionary, by millions.

I don't know where you get your "information", no, wait. I do know. The same ones who tried to stampede the pilots into signing something that was going to be made more concessionary by the judge (company). By waiting, the judge, through the company, had no chance to do so.

These are the same ones who think so little of their families that they trotted little ones out sporting signs, child abuse they will likely pay for later on.

 

[captainJack]

Nope.

They were offered but your MEC told the your MC not to take anything less than DOH or risk being removed from the committee.

You are confusing two separate things. Yet again. Sigh.

One imposes a "list" by whatever means, first. Then, one attaches conditions and restrictions.

 

[LSS]

Gee, what a surprise.

Let me guess, it was National's fault.

Then it was Nicolau's fault.

Then it was Wake's fault.

And so on...

Don't you think you've worn that out?... I've never blamed Nicolau for anything. I blamed ALPA for their mamby-pamby merger policy, guidelines, whatever they were calling it on whatever day. ALPA gave him an inaccurate list from the beginning... (ALPA wouldn't give him the accurate list as that would have definitely harmed them in the MDA lawsuit)... bottom line HB... are you a MIGS? I hope you are, because if you're not... all this stuff you're spewing on the various boards doesn't mean squat to me, because you don't want to change what you don't like... you just want to sit around and complain about it and continue to trash USAPA! Hope you're getting your rocks!

 

[HPDriver]

Don't you think you've worn that out?... I've never blamed Nicolau for anything. I blamed ALPA for their mamby-pamby merger policy, guidelines, whatever they were calling it on whatever day. ALPA gave him an inaccurate list from the beginning... (ALPA wouldn't give him the accurate list as that would have definitely harmed them in the MDA lawsuit)... bottom line HB... are you a MIGS? I hope you are, because if you're not... all this stuff you're spewing on the various boards doesn't mean squat to me, because you don't want to change what you don't like... you just want to sit around and complain about it and continue to trash USAPA! Hope you're getting your rocks!

You guys sure haven't worn it out.

ALPA's merger policy was crafted to allow the two MEC's to come up with a solution on their own. Amazing how you guys can't stand ALPA's interference yet get pissed off because they didn't tell you what to do.

The lists were accurate and they came from your own MEC!!

And as for a MIGS, I sure am. But the was USAPA's C&BL's were set up by SB and DC, they've pretty much locked themselves into power for 3 years.

Doesn't matter though because Wake is guiding you guys in the right direction.

 

[HPDriver]

One imposes a "list" by whatever means, first. Then, one attaches conditions and restrictions.

Gee, ya think? Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

 

[captainJack]

Gee, ya think? Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

You said, DOH, only, and implied the east had no C&R to proffer, which was incorrect. Perhaps you should work on your communication skills.

 

[LSS]

You guys sure haven't worn it out.

ALPA's merger policy was crafted to allow the two MEC's to come up with a solution on their own. Amazing how you guys can't stand ALPA's interference yet get pissed off because they didn't tell you what to do.

The lists were accurate and they came from your own MEC!!

And as for a MIGS, I sure am. But the was USAPA's C&BL's were set up by SB and DC, they've pretty much locked themselves into power for 3 years.

Doesn't matter though because Wake is guiding you guys in the right direction.

What empirical data do you have to back up your claim that the east list was correct? If the east list showed the MDA guys as furloughed it was an inaccurate list, period! "It came from your own MEC"... haven't you heard one word of what I and numerous others have said... Our MEC was largely comprised of the same individuals who led us down this path... those who were not party to the BS were trashed and ostracized by the others... ALPA was covering their butts by presenting the list they did... And as always... your Mother Theresa... Judge Wake is all you can fall back on... and if the DC you referred to is the guy I think he is... he's a damn smart guy and a great pilot advocate. You just didn't happen to like the seniority integration section of the CB&Ls... Too bad you guys didn't join and participate in a constructive manner earlier... maybe your voice and input would have been acted upon, resulting in a different product.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear Direct, I just gotta ask.....how long have you been in this business anyway. Are you even remotely familiar with what happens when when our union shows up to negotiate with this management group, fully prepared to ge down to bussiness and move forward. Let me tell you. NOTHING. Whose (here is your favourite word) 'fault is that.

Long enough to know how Doug does negotiate. The west tried to tell the east guys what was going to happen. The response. We got this, we have been doing this a long time and we know what we are doing.

Obviously not.

Now I guess it depends on what your definition of “Fully prepared to get down to businessâ€￾ means. It has been 15 months since the USAPA invasion. We now have less sections TA’ed then we started with. USAPA also has stated very clearly that they have a disincentive to get a contract.

So who is to blame. Both sides. But the company is doing the job that they are suppose to do. Delay and keep the contract to a minimum cost. The union is suppose to get a contract in a reasonable time with good improvements.

Now who is doing the better job so far? Yes USAPA takes about 85% of the blame on this one.

 

[cleardirect]

So just what are you saying? What's your point? USAPA inherited LOA 93 along with the rest of our crappy contract. And yours as well.

Wow. Are you all right? After a regurgitation like that I think you got some on you.
My point I thought was pretty straight forward. Stop blaming ALPA. They are not on the property anymore. They may never come back. From April 18, 2008 it is USAPA that has to take the blame for everything that happens.

You can’t point back and say it can not be fixed because I did not break it. That is why USAPA says they were elected. To fix all of the evils of ALPA. When are they going to start?

USAPA became responsible when they were elected as our CBA (see comments below)... We did do something; we kicked ALPA to the curb on April 17, 2008

Congratulations. That was 15 months ago. How long do you plan on banging that drum. You know back in high school Al Bundy scored 4 TD’s in one game. Who cares. Voting ALPA off the property was step one. That was not the end. No different then during a revolution. They revolutionaries overthrow the government. But can not figure out how to RUN the government.

When is USAPA going to figure out how to run the union?

What destructive path? fighting the arbitration award, which we feel was grossly unfair?... I never said ALPA spoon fed ME nor the other 43% of those pilots who voted against virtually everything ALPA has proffered for the last 10 years… We on the east don't paint everything with a wide brush, there are some things in sore need of improvement within USAPA, but I have never been naive enough to buy into BS when I hear it... from ALPA or USAPA. I will say though, when ALPA geared up their spin machine (one of the few things they excelled at) they had the 57% that voted for that POS LOA 93 wetting their pants!

The destructive path of continually dividing this pilot group. Tell me. What has the current leadership done to change their attitude toward the west. This leadership has been found liable of DFR. What policies have changed, what attitudes have changed to be more inclusive of the west?

So, tell me all the ways USAPA has failed… USAPA is as good as its membership. With 1600 to 1800 west pilots and about 350 east pilots fighting them at every turn, what do you expect? You are kidding aren't you? Any contract that the company would be willing to offer would never be ratified. Are you living under a rock.? Can you not see what is going on in the economy and the world??? USAPA is not a "poor union"… do I like some who are part of the current leadership? not particularly, and I didn't support nor vote for all of those that won ….

I guess I have to ask the favorite east question. Are you new? How long have you been involved with airline contract negotiations?

Anyone that simply accepts what is “offered†has no idea what they are talking about. Airline unions because of the RLA have to gain leverage in order to force management into parting with bigger contracts.

At this point USAPA has zero, none, nada leverage with management. So you keep hoping that Parker will offer something good.

How long did the west have to wait for ALPA to even deliver the NIC to the company, and even then, they were trying to negotiate the award while covering their butts for allowing a flawed seniority list to be used…. USAPA is doing their job and doing it well considering the adversity they've had to deal with.

More adversity. There must be sainthood just around the corner for Cleary and the rest. A flawed list. More speculation, more myth. Read an update.

PHL July 18, 2009 A question was raised whether the MDA lawsuit will have any impact on the appeal. The short answer is no, as the opinions would be conflicting.

So you all wait until sometime in 2010 to understand the MDA thing will not change the Nicolau list.

I am sick of hearing "if we didn't like what our MEC was doing, we should have recalled their butts". Believe me we tried on many occasions. Once or twice we were successful, but more often than not we weren't. Paul Rice (ALPA National) stuck his face into local recalls when it appeared that ALPA loyalists were about to be canned. He also interfered and supported an attempt by the "let my Daddy vote" crowd to recall the reps who bucked the ALPA philosophy (give it all away and then some if at all possible!). That recall was unsuccessful. But ALPA national never forgot, and later went as far as to place those very officers into trusteeship, replacing them with ALPA sympathizers. What you don't seem to understand (and you are so wrapped up in your NIC windfall that I don't expect you to) is that getting rid of ALPA was not simply about the NIC. It was about events too numerous to mention. You guys had not even entered into this nightmare when it all started. We ultimately did do something... we voted ALPA out!

For any union to be effective every eligible member must join and all of those members must be on the same page. Because of the NIC award and USAPA's stance on DOH, even with fences and protections for the west pilots, the west pilots from the get go swore to destroy USAPA and some have conducted themselves in a most unprofessional manner (goat videos, hanging dolls in cockpits, feces sent through the US mail, jamming USAPA's phone lines). Yeah, I know "final and binding". The company loves this and knows that this pilot group will never reach a consensus on contract talks as long as it continues. (Company wins - pilots lose)

The west pilots have been fighting the east ever since this merger, not understanding that the west pilots will own this POS airline in less than 10 years. Most of us on the east are nearing the end of our careers and we have paid dearly for it. With all the major issues facing all pilots, east and west, the west are one trick ponies... their sole focus has been on the arbitration award... while standing by allowing all the other issues to fall by the wayside. I don't blame the west for fighting for the NIC, but what I do blame the west for is not participating, not joining and not also focusing on other issues which will have a profound affect on us all. You've got your precious NIC… (unless the appeals court says differently) now join and participate.

Lastly, as I said previously, LOA 93 was not a product of USAPA. Yes, it was inherited along with the rest of the ALPA crap. Yes, LOA 93 was a product of your beloved ALPA. Unfortunately, the ALPA spin machine was in full swing and any ALPA leader or line pilot who spoke against LOA 93 was instantly rebuffed by dear old ALPA. The end result was that 57% of the pilots who voted didn't know the true facts. Although it is difficult to find anyone who admits to voting yes on LOA 93, I can assure you that I was one of the 43% who voted a very definite NO.

Here it comes. The adversity that USAPA has had to deal with. Wipe a tear. Real unions deal with adversity all the time.

The conversation does not get very far from the east fantasy. Hanging dolls. What was that year ago. A one time story no evidence no other information. If you have and details let us know. Otherwise it is a false charge thrown out as flame bait. Feces through the mail, again same thing. No evidence what so ever. Do you have a name? Do you have any charges filed? No!!!! Complete BS.

Same song. ALPA was bad boo hoo. USAPA saved us from ALPA. A year from now is that still going to be USAPA’s shining accomplishment? They threw ALPA off the property? Oh and were found liable of DFR. That is indeed a rare thing. Too bad it not something to be proud of.

It is time to start looking at the guys driving this thing now, not the guy that got off 15 stops ago.

 

[HPDriver]

What empirical data do you have to back up your claim that the east list was correct? If the east list showed the MDA guys as furloughed it was an inaccurate list, period!

That's your OPINION and it really doesn't matter. Fact is the list is the list, the MDA suit is just about burned out (great waste of money), and Wake's injunction cements everything into place. I think the lists submitted were spot on and yes that's just my OPINION. Difference is, the one's making the ultimate decisions agree with me and not you.

Our MEC was largely comprised of the same individuals who led us down this path...

So you admit that your own side submitted the list.

and if the DC you referred to is the guy I think he is... he's a damn smart guy and a great pilot advocate. You just didn't happen to like the seniority integration section of the CB&Ls...

The fact that the seniority section of the C&BL (not CB&Ls) is now worthless per the injunction, I could care less about what USAPA has written. In fact, part of their website has already been removed to comply and you'll be seeing a resolution coming from the west demanding that section be amended to reflect Wake's ruling. Nice way to force USAPA's hand.

Too bad you guys didn't join and participate in a constructive manner earlier... maybe your voice and input would have been acted upon, resulting in a different product.

I just crapped myself because I was laughing so hard. USAPA had no intent in allowing west participation.

 

[Megasnoop]

Don't you think you've worn that out?... I've never blamed Nicolau for anything. I blamed ALPA for their mamby-pamby merger policy, guidelines, whatever they were calling it on whatever day. ALPA gave him an inaccurate list from the beginning... (ALPA wouldn't give him the accurate list as that would have definitely harmed them in the MDA lawsuit)... bottom line HB... are you a MIGS? I hope you are, because if you're not... all this stuff you're spewing on the various boards doesn't mean squat to me, because you don't want to change what you don't like... you just want to sit around and complain about it and continue to trash USAPA! Hope you're getting your rocks!

LSS, Im not sure why we waste band width trying to explain to the West types, especially replying directly to a west Newbie who runs up over 120 posts in less than a month, what we went through with ALPA, the sacking of our pensions by ALPA, the "let my Daddy vote" (grass roots, ha, ha) cdampaign on LOA93. No matter what we post, they attack with untruths that East ALPA-lover CM, DoH, DaE, JoS, etc are feeding them. Their entire MO is to try to break our will to hang tough and fight for our rights. Its nothing more than creating FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt). Time is against them. They know it. If they dont stop the will of our membership soon, the appeal will be too far along to turn back. They run their mouths about some mythical, non-exsistent TA that USAPA is keeping from a vote. Its all rot. Based on the guys I fly with and talk to in the PHL crew room, Dan's 90% captains want a NIC contract is pure bull.

Actually, you are wrong. The commonly quoted "initial version" was replete with blank pages - blank checks for the company to fill in. Ask anyone who was there and not your ALPA wannabes.

Contrary to ALPA's desires, by waiting, the last version was much less concessionary, by millions.

I don't know where you get your "information", no, wait. I do know. The same ones who tried to stampede the pilots into signing something that was going to be made more concessionary by the judge (company). By waiting, the judge, through the company, had no chance to do so.

These are the same ones who think so little of their families that they trotted little ones out sporting signs, child abuse they will likely pay for later on.

CaptnJack, thats exactly the way it unfolded, despite what kind of sunshine our East ALPA-lovers are pumping to their west allies. West werent there. They dont have a clue. All they know they get from former East ALPA-FPLers, the same ones who supported "Let my daddy vote!" What a crock.

What good there was in LOA93 has so far come through. We got the Stock options in late 2005, under the NEW company. Precedent also set with the company (the NEW company) on the smaller pieces of LOA93 happening. Saying the rest of that contract wont happen is just feeding FUD. The only way the company can get around the $70M bonus due January 2010/2011 is to BK this place before then. Same with LOA93/LOA84 pay restoration. Those are 2 good reasons to hang on. We've been through a lot of crap over the past 8 years. Waiting out a LOA84 arbitration and the Addington Appeal, we can do that time standing on our feet.

Parker's no fool. He'll put out a legitimate offer when its in his best interest to do so. The odds of any TA coming before the end of the year are almost non-existent. We cnt even agree on costing, much less costs. 2-3 days a month negotiating isn't going to get us anywhere. No chance of getting to an impasse, since we're not in Section 6 talks. So a TA before January will be on the company's terms and wont include the $70M (unless they want to make that an East-only signing bonus) or LOA84 rates. But it WILL contain the NIC. The judge says so. Any wonder why we appeal? Any wonder why we're not in any hurry to get it done wrong?

If you don't know where you are going, you might wind up someplace else. Yogi Berra

I think we know where we're going. If the West and their East ALPA-lovers don't like the goal, they can join and change the direction.