USAPA/ALPA US Pilot Labor Thread 5/10-5/17

[sagurao]

Saguro,
I think the timing of the integration talks will determine which guidelines will be followed. Overall the A-M provisions are very similar to ALPA's, but for the specific situation of which will be controlling I think that will be determined by the CBA. Remember that the USAPs didn't even start their organizing effort until well after Nicolau ruled. If we merge with UAL, the first thing we will be doing is voting on a new union. Integration talks probably won't even begin until we are both ALPA. I have to agree with jetz on this one because the timing issue is relevant here, unlike the situation we just had.

prechilill,
unfortunately that just doesn't make sense to me. If in any merger you voted on representation before seniority integration then the bill would never in any case be used. The way I see it, since we are two different pilot groups pre merger then seniority arbitration is handled as per the bill and the representational vote, regardless of when it occurs, will not change that. Either way though it will end up on an arbitrators desk along with a list that usappa provides and one that awppa's lawyer provides and then we go from there.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Its all moot. We'll be operating on three seperate seniority lists for the next hundred years or until we are all dead, whichever occurs first.

 

[commuter]

You assert that Nicolau was part of ALPA, but you are incorrect. ALPA merger policy states that the two parties must attempt to negotiate a combined list (without ratification of the pilot groups). Failing that they then must participate in Mediation, and failing that Arbitration. This Mediation and Arbitration discussed is in fact a funtion of the National Mediation Board (a US Federal Agency empowerd by the Railway Labor Act).

Hi Cactusboy,

ALPA is no longer the bargaining agent; we are now represented by USAPA. As of the election, we are now one pilot group, that much surely we can agree on.

As to how this plays out I think we're going to be forced to agree to disagree and wait and see what actually transpires. I have my opinion, you have yours, I doubt we're going to change anyone's mind on here. At this point, with a merger that looks like it may be moving forward, I think Parker and crew will not move forward on contract negotiations until a merger is finalized. At that point we go through the entire exercise again, making the Nicolau award and a joint contract moot at this point.

Any merger will fall under the auspices of the McCaskill bill and Sections 3 and 13 of Allegheny Mohawk. USAPA is our elected bargaining agent and, as such, USAPA and USAPA alone will be the sole party to submit a seniority list, as predicated under the Railway Labor Act.

Last but certainly not least, contrary to what you may read on here, there will be no circumventing of federal law by simply filing for single carrier status with the NMB and voting for representation, our judicial system, Congress and the President are not all that stupid.

At least, that's how I see this playing out if a merger does in fact come to fruition. If it does not, and it may very well not, then time will tell. Fortunately, at this point, everyone flies their own routes and equipment and we will continue to do so until the dust begins to settle. I will add, there are many variable here and I will not pretend to know the outcome of these events and anyone who claims they do is certainly fooling themselves.

Thanks for the response Cactusboy.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Its all moot. We'll be operating on three seperate seniority lists for the next hundred years or until we are all dead, whichever occurs first.

Yup. We found something to agree on. I knew we could do it.

 

[Pi brat]

I think the first mistake ALPA made was trying to placate the East with all the maneuvering and talk of trying to "find a solution." The best thing they could have done was defend the award from day one. They also should have had a joint contract lined up before arbitrating the seniority list. That way, as soon as the award came out the new contract and list would have gone into effect.

So yes, I think ALPA made mistakes in the way they handled it, IMO. As for receivership, once they found themselves in that position, regardless of how they got there, I think it was the right thing to do, but not necessarily the most strategic thing to do. I'm not convinced that that single event swayed the election. At that point I don't think there were enough "fence sitters" to change the outcome. It was going to be close regardless, and let's face it, the West was facing unfavorable odds due to the size of the memberships on each side.

For ALPA's sake, they should have turned the list over on May 4th. At least then their "we can't do anything about it" stance would have looked less like "we know it's wrong, but don't want to go down the road of changing it."

Not having a joint contract backfired on the west, but I don't think they can blame that on national, they signed the TA. One west pilot told me that their leadership thought the lack of a joint contract might have been used by them if the list didn't come out their way.

I don't know if ALPA could have won the election even if they played all their cards right. In the end I think it truly turned out to be more about ALPA national than just he NIC award. Most of the guys I flew with that weren't affected by the Nic award were USAPA supporters.

 

[Pi brat]

This particular west pilot agrees with everything you just wrote. I hate to say it, because I'm along for the ride in a way I'd rather not be, but ALPA did not deserve to keep this pilot group. Under the "leadership" of John Prater and his willing accomplices on the EC really, really, screwed up.

Regarding the Philly trusteeship in particular, when it was done I thought it was the wrong thing at the wrong time. It made martyrs of the reps and I think showed the east pilots what could potentially lie ahead if they had stayed ALPA, eg. the heavy hand replacing all the committees and so forth.

History will not be kind to JHP.

See, east and west can agree on something!

I think there was a lot of infighting between the EC and Prater. I think the EC wanted to get rid of it as quick as possible and Prater wanted to come up with a solution that didn't tear us apart. At least John knew how much damage the award could do. He told me that he thought it had the potential to ruin US ALPA, ALPA national and US Airways. So far it's one out of the three.

 

[ClueByFour]

Last but certainly not least, contrary to what you may read on here, there will be no circumventing of federal law by simply filing for single carrier status with the NMB and voting for representation, our judicial system, Congress and the President are not all that stupid.

You mean, exactly what USAPA is currently trying to do?

 

[prechilill]

Any merger will fall under the auspices of the McCaskill bill and Sections 3 and 13 of Allegheny Mohawk. USAPA is our elected bargaining agent and, as such, USAPA and USAPA alone will be the sole party to submit a seniority list, as predicated under the Railway Labor Act.

So you believe that since ALPA is voted off the property all previous seniority integrations which took place when the pilot groups were ALPA are no longer valid? Hmmm. I think you need to brush up on your reading skills a little because you are way off in your understanding of contract law.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You mean, exactly what USAPA is currently trying to do?

Your response to the poster with this reply only confirms what I always thought. Your clueless as to what USAPA is all about. And we are not bypassing anything.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

What ever happened to the need for both pre-merger groups to vote to ratify a contract that includes the Nic list?

I'd always thought that the ALPA decert drive was more an effort to show how unlikely it was for any contract vote that included Nic to pass.

Doesn't that still have to happen before Nic gets implemented?

I'm just curious.

 

[prechilill]

Your response to the poster with this reply only confirms what I always thought. Your clueless as to what USAPA is all about. And we are not bypassing anything.

You guys are all about the Nic- at least, that is what a lot of your sheeple around here keep parroting. Of course, you guys do talk out of both sides of your mouth, one of says one thing and another USAP comes along directly contradicting what the first sheep posted. But if you want us to assume USAPA has some righteous mission to stomp out your imagined evils ALPA has brought on the professional pilots of America, then we will humor you and let you proclaim USAPA is not about the nick... Pardon all the snickering, though.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

So you believe that since ALPA is voted off the property all previous seniority integrations which took place when the pilot groups were ALPA are no longer valid? Hmmm. I think you need to brush up on your reading skills a little because you are way off in your understanding of contract law.

As usual, You're right and we're wrong. That attitude just doesn't surprise me anymore. Maybe a little light reading on your part would also be in order.

 

[EastUS]

Its all moot. We'll be operating on three seperate seniority lists for the next hundred years or until we are all dead, whichever occurs first.

No disrespect via the "laughter" lynyrd...I've had similar thoughts myself. Should the opportunity ever present itself..the rounds are all on me.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You guys are all about the Nic- at least, that is what a lot of your sheeple around here keep parroting. Of course, you guys do talk out of both sides of your mouth, one of says one thing and another USAP comes along directly contradicting what the first sheep posted. But if you want us to assume USAPA has some righteous mission to stomp out your imagined evils ALPA has brought on the professional pilots of America, then we will humor you and let you proclaim USAPA is not about the nick... Pardon all the snickering, though.

Actually, no we're not. Some yes. Not all. Too bad for you that you can't see it. Thats OK. I have given up trying to enlighten you. But as for disagreeing with each other. For me that's good. It means dissent is alive and well. Snicker all you want, it's healthy for the soul.

 

[EastUS]

You guys are all about the Nic- at least, that is what a lot of your sheeple around here keep parroting. Of course, you guys do talk out of both sides of your mouth, one of says one thing and another USAP comes along directly contradicting what the first sheep posted. But if you want us to assume USAPA has some righteous mission to stomp out your imagined evils ALPA has brought on the professional pilots of America, then we will humor you and let you proclaim USAPA is not about the nick... Pardon all the snickering, though.

Snicker, humor and sheeple away...even throw in a sniffle or two if that helps. My belief structure and values have already survived two, in-house teenagers, long ago. 🙄 I suppose that venting's good for the spirit at times, but changes zip as per circumstances...or anyone's convictions. I've no notions of your own core beliefs, but, if such exist...you must then know that such things are not changed via schoolyard level yammering.

It's my earnest belief that ALpa had/has to to "go", for the betterment of pilots everywhere. You don't agree. Fair enough.

I believe that your most essential assumptions regarding the current circumstances are as fully incorrect as all your previous ones have been. Time will tell.