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USAPA/ALPA US Pilot Labor Thread 5/10-5/17

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I don't so much fault Prater for wanting to find a solution that didn't tear us apart as I fault the way he chose to go about it. The JNC was where all that could have and should have been adressed. Sure, it would have taken forever and we may have ended up where we are today anyway, but it would have been the right way to go about it.

The way Prater did it, it just smacked of outright deviousness in the eyes of the west. Sure, maybe it wasn't literally, but how was a line schmuck supposed to know that? We just had to assume it was.

Now on the other hand, if it had been in JNC, the west would have at least felt involved and known that we would all be voting on it. In my opinion, we may have had a shot at coming up with something. But then again, maybe there was no avoiding what happened. One thing is certain though, in my eyes at least, no matter what Prater's true intentions, it looks like he put politics over procedure. Thats just lousy headwork.


Are you saying that you were not informed of the situation by your MEC? Was it because your MEC told you what they wanted you to know?

You now have a chance to get involved and work towards an agreeable solution by joining USAPA.
 
Did you read the post above yours? Read what the UAL MEC Vice Chairman is saying about his own experience with ALPA national. THAT is why USAPA is here (minus DOH and minus Nic.) It is about getting rid of ALPA more than anything else. It was coming long before the Nicolau shame was published. Do a "who is" search on the URL "decertifyalp.org" which was the first web address for USAPA. Tell me when the URL was created.
Check your facts. Do you even know the difference between LEC (LOCAL Executive Council) and MEC (MASTER Executive Council)???

You are referring to comments made by one vice-chairman of only one local council. ie: Council 34. Hardly the voice of all 8000 UA pilots.

Just came from a meeting yesterday. Trust me when I say there is absolutely no sympathy, support, or respect for USAPA on the UAL property. Not to worry though... You may still be fighting your civil war for a long time to come. Contrary to the onslaught of rumor and speculation from the media, there are absolutely NO confirmed reports to the UA Board of Directors that UA is in imminent merger talks with US. It is of course possible that Tilton is concocting a deal and will drop the bomb at the next board meeting. But that would still need to be approved by the BOD. And Tilton's support on the BOD is slipping while ALPA's support is growing.

Several other points of interest. The UAL MEC a while back started UPAC, (United Political Action Committee) that collects funds for lobbying law makers specifically on issues that benefit UAL pilots. This is separate from any other PAC contributions and is used exclusively by UA pilots. How much political clout does USAPA have??? One of our NY reps recently attended a gathering of lawmakers including Charles Rangel, to solidify support for ALPA and particularly UA pilot support. For those who are not familiar, Rangel is Chairman of the powerful Ways and Means Committee. Those kind of political connections go a long way when it comes time to support or oppose a merger.

Another point of interest is an analysis of Net Income (or loss) by airline at various prices of oil and at current fares, load factors, etc. It does not take into consideration increased summer loads or recent fuel surcharges instituted recently by all airlines. But the trend and the point of how fuel costs affect each airline is still valid...

Basically it points out that recent losses are driven solely by fuel and are not necessarily an indication of how well a company is operating. Fuel prices are escalating so fast, that ALL airlines will lose money since they can not raise fares fast enough, and even when they do, the revenue is not immediate since it is only for future booking. This point is for those who claim that US is in such better financial shape than UA. It is not. As I pointed out recently, when you compare apples to apples, and look at cash flow, UA had less of a negative cash flow than US in Q1 with the exception of paying down debt that was not required but strategic to save the company on future interest charges.

But back to the fuel chart. UA obviously burns more jet fuel by nature of how much more UA flies than US. Just like AA currently flies slightly more than UA. At $90/barrel oil, UA's negative net income (net loss) is $255 Millon. US's is $179 Mllion. At $125/barrel oil, UA's negative net income jumps to $2.1 Billion while US's jumps to $771 Million. The chart I saw listed about 8 airlines and prices from $90 to $150 per barrel. But you get the idea. Interestingly, AA (currently the biggest airline) is hurt even more than UA on Net Loss as prices go up. And Continental, considered by most as the healthiest and best run of all hub and spoke airlines currently, loses more than US as oil goes up. Obviously ticket prices must go up and oil speculation must stop inflating prices. But if nothing were to change, no airline will survive.

Our industry does not exist in a vacuum. The larger the airline, the more of an obstacle fuel becomes. So smaller airlines seem to have an advantage. But it is also incomplete financial analysis and overly simplified to say that this one fact alone makes one company stronger than another. Having assets to parlay into increased revenue is an asset and advantage to the larger airlines with greater international scope, higher yield seats, and more cargo carrying capacity. So one needs to stop obsessing over mergers and other distractions, and refocus on running an airline. This is an idea that the BOD at UA is starting to slowly come around to.
 
Tell you what. Remove all of the DOH crap out of usapa, accept the NIC, begin genuine negotiations and then come tell us what your baby union is all about.
As much as you would like to believe your premise, it's not going to happen. Negotiations, I heard that they will begin very soon. With or without your input. Doug apparently needs a joint contract ASAP. The "Baby union" comment, USAPA is about to grow up in the middle of June. Think about it.
 
Check your facts. Do you even know the difference between LEC (LOCAL Executive Council) and MEC (MASTER Executive Council)???

You are referring to comments made by one vice-chairman of only one local council. ie: Council 34. Hardly the voice of all 8000 UA pilots.

It doesn't really matter whether the guy is an LEC Vice-Chair or MEC Vice-Chair. The POINT was that he articulated well why USAPA exists.

BTW, why do you spend all this time flapping your jaws on the US Airways site? No one really pasy any mind to what a UAL pilot has to say over here anyway.

Go play in your own sandbox (or won't your buddies have you over there?)
 
And you also heard DOH was a "slam dunk" :lol:
You are comical...
I don't think you have ever seen me post anything about a slam dunk. But you can believe what you want. I will do the same.

I guess we missed our calling. Your comical also. :lol:
 
Check your facts. Do you even know the difference between LEC (LOCAL Executive Council) and MEC (MASTER Executive Council)???

You are referring to comments made by one vice-chairman of only one local council. ie: Council 34. Hardly the voice of all 8000 UA pilots.

Just came from a meeting yesterday. Trust me when I say there is absolutely no sympathy, support, or respect for USAPA on the UAL property.

Several other points of interest. The UAL MEC a while back started UPAC, (United Political Action Committee) that collects funds for lobbying law makers specifically on issues that benefit UAL pilots. This is separate from any other PAC contributions and is used exclusively by UA pilots. How much political clout does USAPA have??? One of our NY reps recently attended a gathering of lawmakers including Charles Rangel, to solidify support for ALPA and particularly UA pilot support. For those who are not familiar, Rangel is Chairman of the powerful Ways and Means Committee. Those kind of political connections go a long way when it comes time to support or oppose a merger.

Another point of interest is an analysis of Net Income (or loss) by airline at various prices of oil and at current fares, load factors, etc. It does not take into consideration increased summer loads or recent fuel surcharges instituted recently by all airlines. But the trend and the point of how fuel costs affect each airline is still valid...

Basically it points out that recent losses are driven solely by fuel and are not necessarily an indication of how well a company is operating.

An alpa vice chairman from your largest lec is very unhappy with alpa and sends a letter to the pilots telling them that their national union stinks. You say disregard.

You are telling everyone your airline, ual, is in great shape if it did not have to pay for fuel.

You have all these alpa pac powerful people behind you, are they going to pay for the fuel?

All the articles from respected financial news services say united is in trouble, is rearranging credit agreements and shuffling management around, which is not a positive sign of things to come. Two airlines refused to dance with you and there is a very good reason.

You need more lipstick on your spin of the current situation.
 
Let's keep the comments to the subject matter, and not make remarks about the posters.

Thank you.
 
More like a change in rose colored glasses. The spin machine is alive and well and working overtime.


The more I look at all of this, the more I realize how thankful I am to be at US Airway. Yes, I hate the name US Airways as somewhere alone the way the airline Gods put a curse on this entity, however it seems like none of the airlines in our heritage circle of doom would probably had survived on their own. So perhaps we are the blessed one. I just don't think putting to rest a name is going to solve our issues OR is a reason to merge with United. Given their pisspoor reputation these days and their loss of innovation, we're only gaining a better name at best. In reality, they are as dysfunctional as US Airways. Their hatred to US is baffling for a company with so many issues of their own. Perhaps they hate us so much because they see themselves in us and THEY are the ones looking for a savior, which we surely are NOT!!

United is their worst enemy. They want to call us an abortion, yet in reality they have proven THEY are the abortion...left out in the garbage and bleeding!
 
Check your facts. Do you even know the difference between LEC (LOCAL Executive Council) and MEC (MASTER Executive Council)???

You are referring to comments made by one vice-chairman of only one local council. ie: Council 34. Hardly the voice of all 8000 UA pilots.

"COUNCIL 34 VICE CHAIRMAN’S REPORT

F/O Mike Holman, Vice Chairman
March 2008
Pilots of Council 34,

In October of 2006 I attended my first ALPA National Board of Directors meeting in Las Vegas. While I had been to ALPA headquarters in Herndon, Virginia on several occasions, and met with a number of ALPA National officers, this was my first real working experience with ALPA National. Knowing that the pilots of United are the single largest group within ALPA (as well as the largest source of dues dollars) I walked into day one of the meeting expecting our MEC to be treated with respect. Such was not the case."

"Hardly the voice of all 8000 UA pilots." Umm...OK..So; One must now presume that you are "the voice of all 8000 UA pilots"? 🙄 :lol: No matter, as your point's taken = Even your Alpa reps/vice chairman/etc...apparently don't represent your views...???? 😉 Perhaps your people should be calling for recalls then. You've previously assured us all that such things are very easilly accomplished within Alpa.....
 
Perhaps your people should be calling for recalls then. You've previously assured us all that such things are very easilly accomplished within Alpa.....
Good points. If past experience holds true, I guess we'll get to watch how it's done. :lol:
 
Good points. If past experience holds true, I guess we'll get to watch how it's done. :lol:

Indeed. Either that, or...we "might" have to then assume that universal love, awe and admiration for Alpa's not quite so universal within the UA pilot ranks as some would suggest.. even among some of the actual reps themselves 🙄 It's clear, based upon Herndon's handling of our late distress (PHL), that a few heretics should face the flames within the UA happy Alpa family:

"I would have thought that such a question, from an elected representative of one of the largest councils of the largest airlines in ALPA, deserved a better response. Unfortunately, it appears that Captain Prater and ALPA National intend to continue to ignore and disrespect the pilots of United Airlines. It also appears that the “pilot warrior” I thought we had elected to lead us is turning out to be nothing more than another politician." That sentiment alone, and from an LEC Vice Chairman no less, certainly smacks of sedition to me... Prater better form up an inquisition immediately.

Addendum: At least we no longer need fret over those pesky merger rumours,since it appears that "mighty Alpa", and not the "lowly" CEO, will supposedly be calling the shots: "Tilton's support on the BOD is slipping while ALPA's support is growing."

767jetz:"Just came from a meeting yesterday. Trust me when I say.........
Contrary to the onslaught of rumor and speculation from the media, there are absolutely NO confirmed reports to the UA Board of Directors that UA is in imminent merger talks with US. It is of course possible that Tilton is concocting a deal and will drop the bomb at the next board meeting. But that would still need to be approved by the BOD. And Tilton's support on the BOD is slipping while ALPA's support is growing."
 
(nostradamus @ May 13 2008, 10:10 AM)
"You need more lipstick on your spin of the current situation."

I was getting the same impression..........

Perfume that pig Leroy!

Both wouldn't be enough....I'm thinking tap dancing plus juggling lessons at least....UAL being any semblance of a "strong" carrier's a tough sell at this point in time. This place here ain't no prize, but if I had to guess which would go under first....etc.
 
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