Vertical Ref Work

[skullcap]

So, Backmac, methinks that your point is that it is more critical to be able to manage power while doing vertical reference than to have great technique? With this point would have to say you are on track, although with these newer model of helicopters ie; B2's and 407's that they will hover out of ground effect at max external gross weight at lower elevations to 30'C. And have seen the outcome of crappy technique with all the power in the world. But get the point anyhew.

And the Parks people do no training, the barrel thing is what most companies do to train their own pilots on their own nickel(hunnerds of em) to qualify for the test, which the company pays for as well, all to compete with other companies going low ball. I understand completely the reason for the test, it is just a sore point that they don't even contribute to the costs associated with it.

sc

 

[downwash]

Auto Relight, methinks you're getting it, alright. Not that I believe we can learn a bunch from reading. As you well know, it's doing that provides the real learning. Some related thoughts are in Phil Croucher's column in the latest (June/July) issue of 'Vertical.' While I often disagree with Phil's perspectives, I think he's more or less hit the nail on the head this time. B)

 

[Albert Ross]

Aw shucks, DW <blush> - I haven't read it yet, as my copy hasn't arrived, and I haven't seen the results of Mike's editing. At the risk of being disagreed with again, given that there should be some sort of power margin on a lift, I think if you have to start using excessive technique to get a job done, you need a bigger machine. Hold on while I don my tin hat).

I'll be passing through your way on 19th July, DW - I will bring that wee dram that got mislaid last time!

Phil

 

[Auto Relight]

DW,

I couldn't agree with you more, just waiting for the chance to put it into pracitce. I read the article quickly, and I have read the one he refers to as well - I agree. Of course with certain techniques, machines of any kind can be made to do things above there design limits, but the reason for those limits is to provide a margin of saftey and longevity that couldn't be attained if you lifted to the absolute max every time.

For what I can gather so far, use the best technique possible with the given power/performace available, but don't exceed limits set out by the manufacturer. That way, the job gets done with the right machine, said machine lasts to TBO and other overhaul limits, and the employer makes $$$ which allows us all to work in the end. Not to mention the insurance increase if there is an accident or mishap resulting in bent metal or worse.

AR

 

[Elvis]

Sometimes power can be a killer, had a co-worker who crashed his corvette 10 km from picking it up from the dealer, He said He hit a patch of black ice, however it was in July.

:elvis: :elvis:

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

Bell 204/205 with max internal load, you can do pedal turns at 100' to pick out a landing site.

Same helicopters at max external load and I don't give a damn if you have a 100' or a 10' lanyard you will not be doing any hovering and positioning the load wherever.

I have flown a 204 in the mountains in summer. Many times you don't have enough pedal to turn 90 degrees, let alone "pedal turns" while picking out a landing spot. I would take 10 guys with 1000 pounds of fuel in the a.m. In the afternoon, if my prayers not to be called upon weren't answered, I would take 8 guys with no more than 800 pounds of fuel...and was never, ever relaxed about it.

As for the "max external load" part of this post...I am speechless. What altitude? What temperature? I have flown a straight 'B' model Astar at over 10000 feet density altitude at Max External Gross Weight. I couldn't hover but I could certainly (with technique) position the load. There are countless times I could "vertical" with my max gross external weight in a 204/205/212, and more so if I desired. I can remember showing another pilot (new on type) how you could pull 87.2 PSI in a Hughes 500 to move seismic bags, and take about 30 seconds at full power to get out of the staging area. OR you could back up slightly (not the wild 'slingshot' that the uninitiated imagine) and not see over 80 PSI on the torquemeter while being underway in about 15 seconds. Whether one agrees with various techniques, or not, the fact that technique is paramount is absolutely undisputable.

Just as an afterthought: I think there are many ways to practice longlining. The Parks Canada way is not even in the top 100 (my opinion...apologies to those who disagree).

HV

 

[407 Driver]

I'm not too sure how Parks Canada got dragged into this mess. The do not consider themslves a Longline training center, They merely test to their requirements.
Typically, they do not look for the hottest pilots off of seismic or logging. Those types of jobs demand much more speed and precision than a rescue, plus you'd be run off Parks if you used a Logging or Seismic attitude on a rescue. The odd log, bag or drill through the trees probably doesn't hurt much either? Parks look for smooth competant SAFE pilots with strong mountain Ops to conduct their job. There's no hour meter concerns, no turnkey bids, no competition involved.

Safety is first. Accuracy is required, speed is irrelevant. Show up on a seismic job with that attitude, and you'd probably last 1 day ( just guessing, cause I've never done seismic).

As you can tell, I'm one of those "Parks guys", I learned all my lining skills in the hills, all Parks did is to confirm that I won't drag the Wardens through too many trees, not whack them into rock faces, and have the correct attitude to fly them up and down while keeping risks to a minimum.



Apples to Oranges Mr Vibe....

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

I completely agree. I was merely talking about "practicing" longlining. I have worked for a few companies that used the Parke test to evaluate pilots. You can be an excellent seisic pilot (longlining is not the most important thing in seismic...knowing where you are and where you're going is) while being incapable of passing the aforementioned "test". I intended no denigration of the Parks system, I just think that if a guy (or girl) wants to learn, there are a lot of exercises that are useful that have nothing to do with putting a load in a drum.

That was my first post and I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, perhaps I could have phrased it differently.

 

[Blackmac]

Harmonic Vibe: Welcome to the site, my apologies for not mentioning then fact that I was using standard day criteria at sea level or just above as per the manufacturers normal flight BS in the flight manual and of course a perfect machine that performs in accordance with that criteria. Any how good to see some level headed in-put.

407D: I agree totally with everything you said about the mountain rescue guys from Parks and the check outs for mountain rescue pilots.

When I was the contracting officer for Parks, I had pilots that were being checked out by these rangers asking me where the hell they got of in being allowed to check out pilots for this contract.

My answer was if you want to be slung under a helicopter on, I beleive a 70' basket by a novice rescue pilot to a mountain face, you are welcome to question their abbility to say wether they would fly with you or not.

I do not know of any pilot accepting.

As for you 407 and all the other mountain rescue pilots and rangers, keep up the excellent work.

Cheers, Don

 

[skullcap]

HV;
Interesting how many people think that the barrel test is the only test that parks uses. The test is two days long and includes about five hours of flying. The barrel test is merely one short phase, one which really has little to do with flying but with how the added pressure of doing the test in an allotted time frame may change the pilots ability to accomplish the task at hand(similar to a real rescue without the human risk factor). It is just a portion of the test, when I did the test the wardens knew I had been practicing alot(for this portion of the test), and thru a loop by shortening the time allotted to 5 minutes for the three circuits, I did it but for sure they had me squirming just to see how I'd react. The real practice is doing other jobs for 5 years building the 3000 hours they require to be a resue pilot, that practice is what you make it, shortline barrells of diesel or longline, that is your decision and where you want to take your career, don't expect parks to train you or allow on the job training. Still think they should help with the costs of the test though, but is a mute point.

407, there used to be much cutting of throats to acquire the contract, when the company I worked for had it in 86 or 87 the rate was 365 hr for the 206B3 and that was after Quasar had it and took it away from Okie. Does it even come up for bid now?

Blackmac, I have been under the machine a few times when finished training one of our own Pilot's. May not have been one of my smartest moments but the k-country Rangers and the pilot were put more at ease my showing confidence in the Pilot's ability. Apparently wcb doesn't cover pilots under the machine though, strange..


sc

 

[downwash]

Well said, 407, and you, too Blackmac. Each has its very own skill set, but dangling human cargo, regardless of the environs, demands finesse beyond the capability of many. As witness, beaucoup skilled longliners that haven't made the grade, as well as the stringent Class D guidelines imposed by T.C.

 

[407 Driver]

Welcome aboard Mr Vibe, you didn't ruffle any feathers. keep the posts comming, you seem to have some great experience to draw on ...after all, anyone who ran a 350B at 10,000 and survived is OK in my books.

Skullcap, Helen Waite now runs the Parks Contracts, so if you want a shot at it, go to Helen Waite <_<

I've flown on the line a few times, the first sling ride was with the Master...Jim Davies at Lk Louise in (approx) '82. He was incredible on the line, it never waivered a bit, the rope looked and reacted like it was a 100' of steel pipe ! You'd hold your hand out and he'd place the ring in it...amazing !

 

[skullcap]

407;

I went west and saw Helen decided to come home to heaven.

I definately do not want a crack at the contract, was just curious is all.


sc

and yes Jim was very good with the longline, and I think the smoothest 206 driver have seen, hope he is doing fine and enjoying himself these days.

 

[407 Driver]

...just received an email from him today, life is good at Chateau Davies.

 

[VERTICAL REF]

You can be an excellent seisic pilot (longlining is not the most important thing in seismic...knowing where you are and where you're going is)

Vibrator, this is so true...

"...R34, station 1734 is just over there, turn left at the spruce moose and you'll see it no problem..." :blink: