Wages or jobs

[Vortilon]

How do you think the TWU will save jobs?

A. Have all members take paycuts
B. Convert unlimited numbers of AMTS to OSM at the bases AND at line station B checks
C. Combination of of the two.

Oops, you forgot one

D. Cut Fleet Service Clerk pay only...we all know they are overpaid! 🙄

Not unlike title one, title three is their own worst enemy. Like it or not, fleet service pay at AA remains near the top of the pack - when compared to industry peers. The TWU has already pared the AMT wages and benefits to the bottom of the industry to preserve headcount - well - that didn't work. Now the TWU has to get really creative on how to screw the dues payers. Can't wait to see the next TWU abomination TA - automatic NO.

 

[AA89]

From the line point of view - none of above. We are below industry standard, we need a raise now. OH - you take your own decision is not up to us at the line.

Impossible as long as OH and Line are in the same classification and the OH workers numbers are higher than the Line. Get comfortable for at least 6 years if the term sheet becomes reality.

 

[signals]

Why are we giving up jobs rather than a few % more on our pay, we can always get money back, but never jobs?" His response was "Our driveways cost more than your homes down here in Philly, we just cant give up anymore pay." Nice response don't you think.

First, my observation is that-airline come, airline go-if you agree to the wage, the job is there because you have the experience.

The bottom line is that when it comes to the reality of the job force, it is a dog eat dog world. No one is really willing to give up what they have gained. Once you have achieved a comfortable lifestyle, nobody is really willing to downgrade.

Unfortunately some don't realize that their wages will be frozen and their workloads increased. And management tends to get more aggressive at putting a target on your back.

 

[Kev3188]

I disagree. They will always need a certain amount of people to run the business. I would rather get recalled to a well paid job with good benefits after a layoff than have my quality of life slowly drained away through continuous concessions. Of course, if you are in a class of worker that is easily outsourced, that may not be a good philosophy.

The big problem with the large industrial catch-all unions is that they will always fight to keep more jobs, no matter what the pay. A low paid worker still pays dues while a laid off worker gains them nothing.

^This^

+1

Like it or not, fleet service pay at AA remains near the top of the pack - when compared to industry peers.

Not for nothing, but using topped out base rates only, AA FSC's are about mid pack. That doesn't count AS or HA, and also uses separate UA/CO & WN/FL wages. DL will allegedly get a raise in July, and FL employees most certainly will once they move to the WN payscales.

 

[Bob Owens]

Considering i am a FSC in PHL, I'd rather give up pay than jobs since my station would be one of those outsourced. I'm still upset of the outsourcing of overnight cabins in the 2003 contract. During a union meeting I asked the 501 president at the time "Why are we giving up jobs rather than a few % more on our pay, we can always get money back, but never jobs?" His response was "Our driveways cost more than your homes down here in Philly, we just cant give up anymore pay." Nice response don't you think.

Well if you are willing to give up pay and work for less then why not just apply to work for whoever they outsource the work to? You already have Airport access and experience, then if AA ever decides to restaff you could get called back to the higher wage.

In 2004 we had around 300 mechanics riffed out of New York, they all were offered recall, the jobs came back if they wanted them, they have been hiring off the street for over a year, what we did not get back was the pay cuts, the vacation, the Holidays, the sick time, the pilot cap on medical, the doubletime, the OT for training if off shift and at least another dozen concessions. Would you rather see them hire more guys than earn a decent wage?

The fact is you never get the money back.

Never give up pay for jobs, its harder for a company to cut pay and benefits than jobs, if you agree to cut the pay there is no guarantee that they wont cut the jobs. All they have to do is reduce the number of flights or transfer more flying to Eagle.

FSCs and T-II are in a tougher spot than Aircraft Maint and Stores in a sense because most of the stations that they would close are stations that were closed to Aircraft Maintenance back in the 80s.

With M&R everyone seems to forget that AA was willing to settle for a long term deal with what they offered two years ago, well wages for mechanics have increased since then across the industry. If AA thought it was a bad deal for them then wouldnt they have sought a short term deal? Sure maybe they figured it didnt matter because they can always get out of a long term deal they dont like by filing BK but maint isnt a big enough part of the equation to drive that. But if AA really was intent on outsourcing nearly as much as they claim now then why didnt they push it in negotiations? They spent 5 months on the 1/7th rule and labor loaning, well now they have it. My guess is what AA really wants is the ability to threaten to outsource the work, and if they can scam the super low wages in addition they will take it but I have my doubts as to whether or not they intend on outsourcing nearly as much as the "ask".

My guess it that a year from now, regardless of how negotiations go, AFW and Tulsa will still be open, DWH will be bigger, OT will still be plentiful and the attrition rate will be more of a concern than the bump and roll. Sure numbers will decline as the new aircraft come on line but people will, and always are leaving anyway. AA has been telling kids in schools that they expect to be doing a lot of hiring in a few years, for once, I believe they are being honest.

Just look at the last few years of negotiations. In the summer of 2009 they claimed that if they could not fill all the white spaces in the dock plan with 3P work that they would have to cut 1200 jobs by 2012, well its 2012 and headcount is up by around 500. Every summer they said there would be layoffs by the fall, they failed to materialize. They closed a base and reopened another one, they went through all the upgrades and hired off the street. Now they want to gut whats left of the contract under the threat of outsourcing, well why did they consistantly bring work in house over the last seven years? Why did they bother with new hires?

Look around at the industry. Wages for mechanics are going up. Airlines are merging and keeping all the mechanics aquired through the mergers, Southwest is even hiring off the street after merging with Airtran. When did we ever see that? Normally with a merger we see riffs.

Just because AA filed C-11 doesnt change wahts going on in the market. AAR cant get workers to do what they have, never mind take oin more, and if they did they would charge AA through the nose. Things are not as dire as some make it out to be, unless we make it that way by agreeing to give up even more.

 

[MCI transplant]

Impossible as long as OH and Line are in the same classification and the OH workers numbers are higher than the Line. Get comfortable for at least 6 years if the term sheet becomes reality.

<_< ------ Let's get realistic here. What your looking at would be eight, to ten years, down the road before you'de see a new contract. A six year contract, and then management would drag their feet for another two, to four years, after that. Just like they've done on this one!------ From someone who's been there!------- In seriousness, can you really afford that? This is the question, and reality, your going to have to ask yourself when you look at that new T/A. Especialy when the demand for quilified people is increasing in the Industry, outside of AA, as Bob has stated!

 

[hoffa28]

Well if you are willing to give up pay and work for less then why not just apply to work for whoever they outsource the work to? You already have Airport access and experience, then if AA ever decides to restaff you could get called back to the higher wage.

In 2004 we had around 300 mechanics riffed out of New York, they all were offered recall, the jobs came back if they wanted them, they have been hiring off the street for over a year, what we did not get back was the pay cuts, the vacation, the Holidays, the sick time, the pilot cap on medical, the doubletime, the OT for training if off shift and at least another dozen concessions. Would you rather see them hire more guys than earn a decent wage?

The fact is you never get the money back.

Never give up pay for jobs, its harder for a company to cut pay and benefits than jobs, if you agree to cut the pay there is no guarantee that they wont cut the jobs. All they have to do is reduce the number of flights or transfer more flying to Eagle.

FSCs and T-II are in a tougher spot than Aircraft Maint and Stores in a sense because most of the stations that they would close are stations that were closed to Aircraft Maintenance back in the 80s.

With M&R everyone seems to forget that AA was willing to settle for a long term deal with what they offered two years ago, well wages for mechanics have increased since then across the industry. If AA thought it was a bad deal for them then wouldnt they have sought a short term deal? Sure maybe they figured it didnt matter because they can always get out of a long term deal they dont like by filing BK but maint isnt a big enough part of the equation to drive that. But if AA really was intent on outsourcing nearly as much as they claim now then why didnt they push it in negotiations? They spent 5 months on the 1/7th rule and labor loaning, well now they have it. My guess is what AA really wants is the ability to threaten to outsource the work, and if they can scam the super low wages in addition they will take it but I have my doubts as to whether or not they intend on outsourcing nearly as much as the "ask".

My guess it that a year from now, regardless of how negotiations go, AFW and Tulsa will still be open, DWH will be bigger, OT will still be plentiful and the attrition rate will be more of a concern than the bump and roll. Sure numbers will decline as the new aircraft come on line but people will, and always are leaving anyway. AA has been telling kids in schools that they expect to be doing a lot of hiring in a few years, for once, I believe they are being honest.

Just look at the last few years of negotiations. In the summer of 2009 they claimed that if they could not fill all the white spaces in the dock plan with 3P work that they would have to cut 1200 jobs by 2012, well its 2012 and headcount is up by around 500. Every summer they said there would be layoffs by the fall, they failed to materialize. They closed a base and reopened another one, they went through all the upgrades and hired off the street. Now they want to gut whats left of the contract under the threat of outsourcing, well why did they consistantly bring work in house over the last seven years? Why did they bother with new hires?

Look around at the industry. Wages for mechanics are going up. Airlines are merging and keeping all the mechanics aquired through the mergers, Southwest is even hiring off the street after merging with Airtran. When did we ever see that? Normally with a merger we see riffs.

Just because AA filed C-11 doesnt change wahts going on in the market. AAR cant get workers to do what they have, never mind take oin more, and if they did they would charge AA through the nose. Things are not as dire as some make it out to be, unless we make it that way by agreeing to give up even more.

I guess you and I look at things from a different point of view.. I'll assume your work in JFK and as a mechanic... 1rst your station is not being outsourced and 2nd You have a skill.. I started at AA right out of High school and never picked up a trade (my stupid fault)... so I much rather have a job even if its after a outrageous 20% pay cut.... We would still be getting $17hr, which you and I both know would be double of what a outsource company would pay. Although I have over 20yrs and I'm PT AGAIN, I would not pick up my family and move to a another station, because you don't know what curve ball the company is going to throw at us next. In the end, I hope the company and union can come to a agreement in a fair contract that keeps our jobs and pay (I know I'm dreaming) or that the BK judge tells AA your crazy for wanting all of things and he's not going to put 13,000 more people on the street in this lousy economy... If all else fails, we in Philly pray for a merger with US.

 

[Hopeful]

I guess you and I look at things from a different point of view.. I'll assume your work in JFK and as a mechanic... 1rst your station is not being outsourced and 2nd You have a skill.. I started at AA right out of High school and never picked up a trade (my stupid fault)... so I much rather have a job even if its after a outrageous 20% pay cut.... We would still be getting $17hr, which you and I both know would be double of what a outsource company would pay. Although I have over 20yrs and I'm PT AGAIN, I would not pick up my family and move to a another station, because you don't know what curve ball the company is going to throw at us next. In the end, I hope the company and union can come to a agreement in a fair contract that keeps our jobs and pay (I know I'm dreaming) or that the BK judge tells AA your crazy for wanting all of things and he's not going to put 13,000 more people on the street in this lousy economy... If all else fails, we in Philly pray for a merger with US.

Good post....There will always be people who never put themselves in the other person's shoes.
Talk is cheap....Each and every person has to make that decision based on his or her personal situation.

 

[TulsaTurd]

I guess you and I look at things from a different point of view.. I'll assume your work in JFK and as a mechanic... 1rst your station is not being outsourced and 2nd You have a skill.. I started at AA right out of High school and never picked up a trade (my stupid fault)... so I much rather have a job even if its after a outrageous 20% pay cut.... We would still be getting $17hr, which you and I both know would be double of what a outsource company would pay. Although I have over 20yrs and I'm PT AGAIN, I would not pick up my family and move to a another station, because you don't know what curve ball the company is going to throw at us next. In the end, I hope the company and union can come to a agreement in a fair contract that keeps our jobs and pay (I know I'm dreaming) or that the BK judge tells AA your crazy for wanting all of things and he's not going to put 13,000 more people on the street in this lousy economy... If all else fails, we in Philly pray for a merger with US.

Hoffa28, good luck to you and the other sheep in Philly. The rest of us are not willing to bend over so easily.

 

[hoffa28]

Hoffa28, good luck to you and the other sheep in Philly. The rest of us are not willing to bend over so easily.

Explain to me how I'm bending over for the company? The mess the company is in is not our fault, I don't want to take a pay cut or pay for more in benefits or lose my pension.. So what should we be doing? Go in front of the BK judge and just scream no at everything. That would force the BK judge to allow the company to implement everything they want. I hope the union is explaining that all of the outsourcing and cuts are not needed and also trying to work with the company in finding savings elsewhere. Now i know the company doesn't want to listen to us or even care what we have to say, but we need to prove to the judge that we tried.

As far as the merger goes with US, nobody wants it but if your choices are standing in the unemployment line, picking up your family's and moving or merging with US and putting food on the table for your family by having a job, its a pretty easy choice.

 

[AA89]

I guess you and I look at things from a different point of view.. I'll assume your work in JFK and as a mechanic... 1rst your station is not being outsourced and 2nd You have a skill.. I started at AA right out of High school and never picked up a trade (my stupid fault)... so I much rather have a job even if its after a outrageous 20% pay cut.... We would still be getting $17hr, which you and I both know would be double of what a outsource company would pay. Although I have over 20yrs and I'm PT AGAIN, I would not pick up my family and move to a another station, because you don't know what curve ball the company is going to throw at us next. In the end, I hope the company and union can come to a agreement in a fair contract that keeps our jobs and pay (I know I'm dreaming) or that the BK judge tells AA your crazy for wanting all of things and he's not going to put 13,000 more people on the street in this lousy economy... If all else fails, we in Philly pray for a merger with US.

No disrespect intended from me but I can guarantee most licensed mechanics look at things differently than other groups represented by the twu. We have a level of responsibility and we want to be compensated fairly for it. But no matter who you are you are only worth what you can negotiate, no matter what you think yourself. Whether we can be replaced by a highschool dropout, central american or a scab doesn't matter. The rules are not rigged in our favor so short of following Bob's formula we are stuck in this cycle of accepting whatever the company decides they want to give us. I wouldn't expect much relief from a judge or USAir.

 

[AA89]

<_< ------ Let's get realistic here. What your looking at would be eight, to ten years, down the road before you'de see a new contract. A six year contract, and then management would drag their feet for another two, to four years, after that. Just like they've done on this one!------ From someone who's been there!------- In seriousness, can you really afford that? This is the question, and reality, your going to have to ask yourself when you look at that new T/A. Especialy when the demand for quilified people is increasing in the Industry, outside of AA, as Bob has stated!

Eight to ten years would be the reason I used the words " at least 6 years"
Well, what I can afford might be different from what someone else can afford but all of us over the 20 year mark have made well over a million dollars at AA. I haven't pissed mine away and then blamed paycuts etc for it. But then again I might be in the minority, I don't know. What I do know is that to start over again somewhere else would be a huge drop in everfything including pay and then if I am lucky enough to follow Bob's plan I can top out in 5 or more years (sounds like another 8 to 10 year stretch to me). This would just about be retirement age for me.
The supposed lack of qualified people I think is a big assumption. Not in your numbers but in the fact that we are assuming that the company gives a rats ass about qualifications. If you want to be realistic, look at the term sheets and the use of OSMs and tell me that qualified people are a concern. Go to the MROs both in the USA and abroad and look for qualified people. Yes like you, I have been there. If the company cared about qualifications or even quality we wouldn't be having this discussion. The company wants warm bodies here and the MROs want the same. I'll bet a bunch of unemployed Fleet Service Clerks would be willing to do the work. There shouldn't be a shortage of those in a year or so.

 

[amtide]

Impossible as long as OH and Line are in the same classification and the OH workers numbers are higher than the Line. Get comfortable for at least 6 years if the term sheet becomes reality.

There are ways like for example put some money in the line premium and limit the osm to the bases only.

 

[AA89]

There are ways like for example put some money in the line premium and limit the osm to the bases only.

Yes that was in the 2010 T/A. But remember, the company is asking for basically even money and greatly expanded OSM usage at OH and the Line. If anything close to the term sheet is imposed then the wages at the line will be set and OH will still have numbers vs the line in any future negotiations which would be 6+ years down the road. If, as some predict, the other carriers use this low line pay as the new standard then their pay/benefits could stagnate or even drop to this level through contract negotiations or another round of BK.
I believe it all boils down to this for the TWU: Increasing line premiums doesn't bring in extra dues for the TWU like keeping heads. Those are their choices now that we are in BK. Makes the T/A look pretty sweet in hindsight.

 

[TulsaTurd]

Explain to me how I'm bending over for the company? The mess the company is in is not our fault, I don't want to take a pay cut or pay for more in benefits or lose my pension.. So what should we be doing? Go in front of the BK judge and just scream no at everything. That would force the BK judge to allow the company to implement everything they want. I hope the union is explaining that all of the outsourcing and cuts are not needed and also trying to work with the company in finding savings elsewhere. Now i know the company doesn't want to listen to us or even care what we have to say, but we need to prove to the judge that we tried.

As far as the merger goes with US, nobody wants it but if your choices are standing in the unemployment line, picking up your family's and moving or merging with US and putting food on the table for your family by having a job, its a pretty easy choice.

No explanation from me is going to help you grow a backbone and stand up for yourself.