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Waterboarding....torture?

Make no qualms about it. Waterboarding is a form of torture, but so is locking up smokers in a non-smoking facility which happens every minute here in the good ole USA. Throwing an alcoholic in the drunk tank to ‘dry out’ is also a form of torture but these are societal accepted forms of retribution and not considered torture but justice.

IMHO, information extraction should be equal to the brutality inflicted by the opposing force. I say opposing force as this conflict with terrorism has no discernable or accountable leadership chain of command that most wars have. In WW2, the Germans and Japanese were the most horrendous abusers of torture and murder ‘on record’. In the Vietnam war, the Viet Cong would go to a village and kill everyone that would not contribute to ‘their’ liberty. Their methodology of extracting loyalty included murder, disfiguration and rape but all the MeriKans saw was the MyLai Massacre and judged everything based on this one stupid incident while ignoring the ‘insane’ atrocities being inflicted by the VC and still by the NVA.

The Taliban/Al Qaeda do ‘much’ worse in their interrogation and ‘citizen control’ techniques than any MeriKan would ever do. When our enemies conform to civilized methods then we should as well. Until then, the equal force +1 of brutality should continue.

B) xUT
 
Not sure I agree with equating smoking rooms with water boarding but I get your point. Torture is relative to the fears and needs of the subject. I am ok with giving them pork and physical humiliation. Physical pain and things such as water boarding is where I personally draw the line.

I do not believe that the end justifies them means. Were that the case, then the police should be released from the burden of Miranda and other such niceties. Yes, yes, I know that the 'terrorists' are not US citizens. I believe that if the US is going to present it's self as the beacon of hope (that it has done in the past) then we must be willing to place our values above our fears. I am fully aware that by not doing what some think must be done that I am placing my life and those of my country men at risk. I would prefer not to die. I would prefer that no loose their life to an attack of any kind. I guess the best example I can come up with is would you rather get rich by stealing the money from others or by earning it your self. Actually, I have a better one. Not sure how old you are but back in 1982 a Air Florida plane crashed into the Potomac river during winter. There was a helicopter plucking people out of the water. One man they were trying to rescue kept giving the line to someone else. IIRC, he gave the line to 3 others in the freezing water. When they went back the fourth time, he was gone. He could have saved him self but he sacrificed him self to help others. I believe that someone like that would not be able to live with him self had he been selfish and put his life ahead of the others that needed help. I do not believe that the principals which this nation were founded on should be sacrificed for anything. If the flag stands for anything, it stands for those principals.

I as a person am more likely to follow someone who leads by example than someone who talks the talk but cannot walk the walk. I realize you probably do not agree with me and I reppect that but I hope I mane my POV a bit more clear.
 
Garfield1966 said:
Not sure I agree with equating smoking rooms with water boarding but I get your point. Torture is relative to the fears and needs of the subject. I am ok with giving them pork and physical humiliation. Physical pain and things such as water boarding is where I personally draw the line.

I do not believe that the end justifies them means. Were that the case, then the police should be released from the burden of Miranda and other such niceties. Yes, yes, I know that the 'terrorists' are not US citizens. I believe that if the US is going to present it's self as the beacon of hope (that it has done in the past) then we must be willing to place our values above our fears. I am fully aware that by not doing what some think must be done that I am placing my life and those of my country men at risk. I would prefer not to die. I would prefer that no loose their life to an attack of any kind. I guess the best example I can come up with is would you rather get rich by stealing the money from others or by earning it your self. Actually, I have a better one. Not sure how old you are but back in 1982 a Air Florida plane crashed into the Potomac river during winter. There was a helicopter plucking people out of the water. One man they were trying to rescue kept giving the line to someone else. IIRC, he gave the line to 3 others in the freezing water. When they went back the fourth time, he was gone. He could have saved him self but he sacrificed him self to help others. I believe that someone like that would not be able to live with him self had he been selfish and put his life ahead of the others that needed help. I do not believe that the principals which this nation were founded on should be sacrificed for anything. If the flag stands for anything, it stands for those principals.

I as a person am more likely to follow someone who leads by example than someone who talks the talk but cannot walk the walk. I realize you probably do not agree with me and I reppect that but I hope I mane my POV a bit more clear.
Click to expand...

Your pov has always been crystal clear, however I doubt you alone will change anyones mind on this matter.

Talk the talk? Walk the walk? What does that have to do with waterboarding again?

How is it a hero rescue has anything to do with terrorists?
 
I'm going to extract information from you....however in the interest of being humane....I leave you the choice between two EIT's totally up to you.

Dipping your arm in hot oil or Waterboarding.....
 
delldude said:
I'm going to extract information from you....however in the interest of being humane....I leave you the choice between two EIT's totally up to you.

Dipping your arm in hot oil or Waterboarding.....
Click to expand...


Both of those are torture so I fail to see the choice.
 
Not sure how reliable but it is interesting.

FBI agent says torture not reliable

WASHINGTON (AP) — A former FBI man who interrogated an al-Qaida leader said Wednesday extreme techniques used by the Bush administration were "ineffective, slow and unreliable" and caused the prisoner to stop talking.

Ali Soufan, testifying to a Senate panel behind a screen to hide his identity, said that his interrogation team obtained a "treasure trove" of information from Abu Zubaydah using a non-threatening approach that outwitted the detainee — even getting him to talk by using his childhood nickname.

Soufan said his team had to step aside when CIA contractors took over, using simulated drowning, sleep deprivation and other harsh methods. He said those techniques caused the prisoner to "shut down."
Click to expand...
 
That being said, I still do not see how a legal, moral or ethical case can be made to support torture. Emotional one yes, but that is not what US jurisprudence is based on.
 
And who's picture is next to the term "LYIN' B-I-T-C-H" in websters ?

Time to Man-up Pelosi and say, "Yes, I was briefed on waterboarding.....................period, end of discussion!"
Notice how Nobama and the Demorats are backing off the Bush torture tactics, since some of their own are involved ?
And Nobama using the excuse, "Releasing these photo's could endanger our troups" is nothing but a cover !
 
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