What Hepac Can Do For You

[Biggles]

I'm not sure why I'm posting a reply here as I've been refusing and purposely avoiding this whole fiasco hoping that at least, that perhaps, like in just maybe, there is a chance in hell to be able to read 3 consecutive intelligent posts! Somehow, it never makes it past 2! Guess I've had a bad day, tired, and might as well take the opportunity to extend my low tolerance and zero patience attitude to my always special heli comrades and non comrades (as I figure I will loose a couple after this post) but then again, we all come around, and you gotta read a little humor in this too!

I'm blown away at the child-like mind games, sandbox fights, and totally useless comments posted by you so called professionals. SO THERE ! I'm already feeling a little better. I am also volunteering my help in anyway just because I think this is a well overdue association and that it is a more than worthy cause. I will not benefit from any of the good this association may bring. I am neither a HE nor a HP (guess that makes me an "IT") but the H industry drew me in since day one some 23+ yrs ago and has kept me there ever since.

Now, having said that, I even have a problem with this topic title "What Hepac can do for you"! Like, wait a cotton-pickin minute! What Hepac can do for you, should actually be the other way hell around! Might we be so totally useless and incapable to need to have that explained or answered to us and besides its all in black and white on its web site! It's not like we're addressing the dental industry or the hair salons to join in! Simple and clear as mud to me. Hepac will do what YOU ask it do, collectively. As in a GROUP. What you (as a GROUP) feel this industry needs will be it's priority.

This should not require sales pitches. If lures, enhancers, incentives are expected, if justifications and having to PROVE itself is required before hand from an association that is newly opened to and is waiting for an appointed board of directors, members, etc... well, sorry to say, you guys have been far to busy picking each others brains (and other body parts) rather than making or doing something constructive and meaningful. The Blackster started it up, gave it a name (and just in passing that took dam long enough too when he called for ideas - close call for the ultimate whining match). Myself, and Helicopper volunteer our names because we feel strongly about it, we feel its way overdue and also, CUZ the association needed a couple people to get it officialized! This is not written in stone OKAY, it is waiting for a change, waiting for other volunteers if need be. Impass again and already! The fees, well okay, 200$ too steep?, frig, lets discuss what is accessible in a profession flippin way! I believe a topic was started, it may still have potential however I saw that going straight to cans too!

Now, about our so called similarities once we have a sip of this infamous "beer" talk theory. Lets do it, if in different areas it must be, then lets do it. Ribs, beer, whatever it takes, lets do it! Sounds like a Nike commercial?, hey, it works for them dosen't it. Manly yes, but I like it too !! Its not like you're soakin in it Madge!! Tell me you've got my point!

I'm sure that I'm leaving out a whole bunch of other things I wanted to say, but I'm being paiged by a teeny member of my family. I must appologize (but don't take back) my scolding you boys & girls. As a parent who's been doing this for so long, I am doing this because I feel that this "group/child" is worthy of a little foot stepping for what I believe is a deserving cause. Asking for a more mature/adult attitude may be insulting, cocky or a little much, but give it a shot, there's so much more good in constructive and collective ideas/efforts than there is in "hey, how can we "p" each other off. I see it a million times a day (but the age group is 9-10).

Please do not get offended by some of these remarks, they are really all meant well, I think we can make this work, but we must stick together not stick it to each other.

Your biggest supporter
Biggs

 

[Charles W.]

Biggs.......

If you need someone to really tell em how fu.kin stupid all this arguing back and forth over childishness is I couldn't care less what they think of me.....

Just let me know and I'll put it in language they will understand.

Because I couldn't give a crap about being PC.

Rev. Chas W.

 

[Biggles]

Hey Rev!

You have no idea how many times I've used the "delete" button or re-wrote the same line in attempt to clean it up! Maybe because I'm in the "setting the example" phase that it came out that way.

What was it you were gonna ask me about, read that off some other topic, but can't find it anymore! Ya'll coming down to the HAC??

 

[Heli Ops]

Hey Guys - from an outsider who doesnt even live in your country, but is more than willing to help see the association get up and running, you need to act like the professionals you are claiming to be. You have a great opportunity here to start something that could help change the industry you live in and love.

Biggles is right, it should be what can you do for the association. Some of you might have marketing skills, or contacts in the insurance industry or be able to arrange for some sort of discounts at parts suppliers if you are a member of the association.

For example members like Mike and I could donate or discount ad space to promote the existence of the association. Eagle Helicopters might sponsor the membership cards in return for their logo on them etc. These are just ideas.

Again, from someone down the bottom of the world, show everyone how professional you guys and girls are. The canadian industry has a great reputation and everywhere I go around the world, Canadians are held in high regard, so build on that and make HEPAC an association that is just as professional and well respected. Just my two cents worth.

Heli Ops

 

[cyclic monkey]

A quote from the HEPAC by-laws………
"CONDITIONS OF MEMBERSHIP â€. …………..persons ………seeking to improve the
profession of helicopter engineering and pilotingâ€.

A quote from Blackmac……(the only person who uses the HEPAC banner on his posts).
“I do not believe that manufacturing or any other position other than a person actually working under field conditions (Tent Camp) has any input in what HEPAC is talking aboutâ€.

I think there are many fine people in this industry that are seeking to improve the profession without ever going to the field. I’m certain the manufacturing teams at Eurocopter Canada, Bell Mirabel, etc. are seeking to “improve the profession†on a daily basis.

It’s no wonder we are confused as to what HEPAC can do for us, or what we can do for it.
We don’t even know if we can join !! Our old friend Biggles (excellent post above) says that he is not an engineer or pilot, but somehow he is on the Board of Directors !!!??

Blackmac, how long is it since you were in a tent camp, had a cyclic in you hand, or greased a rotor-head ??
I suspect it might be quite a while. Does that dis-qualify you from being a member ?? I hope not. This sort of Association needs people with your level of experience, even if you aren’t currently on a six week tour 300 miles north of Fort St. Nowhere.
I am grateful for you starting this Association, but we need some clarity here in the direction that HEPAC is going before we cough-up our membership fee, whether it is 25cents or $200.

Before you reply, please read-on.

More quotes from Blackmac……(the only person who uses the HEPAC banner on his posts).

“Well, my son, I have news for you, you will have a say in HEPAC as will MagSeal when you become members of HEPAC,†(Note, just a moment ago I thought Magseal wasn’t allowed to join).

â€Put your money were your so called mouth isâ€.

“why don't you take over, ………….Say the word my son, or shut the f... upâ€.

This site is not HEPAC. It is a CA Aviation forum, and a discussion about HEPAC. Surely the decision of whether our opinion is welcome is up to CA Aviation.
Can we please have a proper discussion here without the threats and abuse. Maybe the clarity in DIRECTION I am hoping for should come from the DIRECTORS, when, and if, they ever agree with each other.
Biggles, is that is too much too ask an Association to do for us??

Respectfully seeking to improve the Association and the profession, Cyclic Monkey.

 

[Elvis]

Well said CM.

:elvis: :elvis:

 

[snowedin]

Having picked up this thread again after a bit of a break...i think i left it early on page two...I have to say that I agreed with many of you about Don's heavyhanded approach. While his idea is a good one, his presentation left a little to be desired.

But as I read the last few pages of posts, I have to say that I am heading over to his side on this one. The last few posters have taken the words right out of my mouth (keyboard??) What Don has done is set up the infrastructure for those involved in the helicopter industry to try to make a difference. How will that be done? As Don repeatedly states...that will be determined by the membership. He is more than willing to step aside if that is the wish of the membership.

The world is full of people who are ready and willing to complain about how things are, but have nothing to contribute as to how they should be. Shouldn't we be posting concrete suggestions on how to deal with problems, (and it seems to be easy to identify these problem areas) rather than questioning? Rather like asking your newborn which career path he will choose, and how he will perform the job once he gets there??!!

As for guys like Magseal, we may not always like what Don says or how he says it, but you make it fairly clear you have no interest in this matter. So drop it. I for one don't feel that he should be working this hard to help who? Him? Maybe you one day??

How you ask?

That will be determined by you, not Don? Did he give you the chance to help yourself?

Yep!

Either get onboard, or leave it alone!

 

[Biggles]

Cyclic, first off I've always enjoyed your posts and pics.

Now, about myself being an "it" as opposed to an ame or pilot and yet being on the board of directors, as I thought I made it clear that I'm on the board because 3 people needed to be to make the association a legal and official one. I jumped at the opportunity and volunteered. I'd happily give up my spot to a real "mccoy" but still hope that I can actively participate and assist in other ways.

You have good points and your last paragraph is one of them. Precisely what I've been hoping for, constructive and positive input, clarity and an across the board understanding. The association is in fact or I think it should be, a mirror reflection of what we/you stand for and believe in. I strongly feel we are standing pretty well in the same airfield, just that the voicing of our thoughts needs major tweaking!

I will try to get back with ideas later in the day/evening, the Biggster does have a day job and is actually cheating here a little.

Oh, and just so you know, don't want you to feel left out or not be in the know, I is a "she" :hide: . Just your average jo (ette) with this infamous aviation disease.

Heli-Ops, you said it well and I for one welcome your enthusiam and input. Off topic, it was a pleasure meeting you at the HAI - say, did you notice the twin sheep on the posters and in the program centerfold ! hahahaha.

 

[bubbleboy]

I don't know if I can put it any simpler.

Blackmac: Please show me the quote where I am pro-union. Nothing could be further from the truth. Please go back and re-READ the posts where I am the one defending your efforts against the "naysayers". I have always given you and your efforts the greatest respect.

Biggles, Chas, et al: Common sense suggests that WE are the face of HEPAC, and will be the ones to make it succeed. Nobody wants HEPAC to succeed more than me. All I was trying to say was this: As long as Blackmac is associated with HEPAC, no new faces are going to come forward.How did this go from the overwhelming support that was given when blackmac first announced HEPAC, to where we are today? Don, we all appreciate the significant effort you have made, but for the greater interest, you need to know when to step back - a little anyway.

Biggles, how do we get to your happy place where we are all working for HEPAC if nobody joins?

Make fun of the beer face to face. In reality I don't give a sh$$ about the beer aspect. You will notice it was me who started that poll. I realized that things were not going well with this discussion. Why not have a gathering where we can meet and ask questions in a civilized manner? Why the west? Because there are lot's of people out here in close proximity and a successful meeting could result in lot's of new members.

How do I respond to you when I finally agree to pony up my $200 in a show of faith, which occured BEFORE this latest melt-down, and you tell me to keep my money. I'm confused!!

When Blackmac first conducted his poll late last year, I became very interested. I was tired of talking in circles with fellow pilots and engineers about the state of our industry, and how we need an Association. Well you know what? I don't really care whether there is an Association at the end of the day. If there is great, let's try and do some good. If there isn't, we will have examined the idea and deemed it useless, and then everybody can shut the fu$$ up about it once and for all!!!!

Another bit of advice for HEPAC, rather then get involved one on one in this forum, why not use your site to respond or whatever.

 

[bubbleboy]

Furthermore, no matter how carefully I make my posts on this particular topic, they are not helping, and are most likely part of the problem. I know when to shut my pie-hole.

Therefore I will not be making further posts. If you want to rip me a new a@@hole, please send me a PM.

bb

 

[MagSeal]

I see my name pop up lots, why am I the bad guy? I'm just excercising my right to ask questions, sometimes tough questions.Does that automatically make me a sh*t disturber? I'd be doing the same whether my membership was paid or not. Right now I'm asking the questions I want answers to, prior to dumping my wad of cash. Once I'm satisfied it'll be what I'm paying for, then my questions/desires/demands will continue. If I'm being ignored now, I wonder if that'll change if I'm a member?
Go back and see if any of my questions were ever answered with an answer that didn't insult, or sling mud, or threaten bodily harm.
No matter which way you look at it, there is a long road ahead before this thing ever works. December (D-day) will be here faster than you can imagine.

 

[Randy_G]

You may not like Blacmac, but to give credit where credit is due, he did get off of his butt and do something to try and help all of us. So I for one thank you for doing that.

Now I hate like hades to agree with him but he is right on something. If you don't like him as spokesperson, you simply have to join and vote for someone you feel would better represent you. I firmly believe that for our profession to prosper we need to have an association. We need to have a unified voice when it comes to dealing with Transport, Revenue Canada, Insurance companies, etc. Without it, we will be at the whim of the owners, and others who don't care about our wellbeing. I'm by no means advocating a Union.

The Association I envision will not have a say in wages, tarriffs, tour lengths, those sorts of things. Having said that, it could survey it's members about what wages are being paid, educate the clients as to why we require decent accomodation and edible meals (as per CARS), work with operators and TC on new legislation for the betterment of all involved in this industry, producing safety workshops for clients operators and aircrew. There are many things that it could do for us. However, it will take time, money, and effort to even begin to address these issues.

Here's another question:
I find myself in a fantastic position, meaning I enjoy the company I work for, I don't mind the location I live in, everybody in the company gets along famously well with each other and we all get paid well above $60000 a year (except for low time pilots and apprentices)
In other words, I really don't have any concerns or issues that I can't handle myself within the company since we have very good communication between management and emplyees (I should probably mention that I and most of the other employees are part owners of this company; we are a small outfit but nonetheless)
So my point is this: in what areas would HEPAC be able to help me, if I were a member?

There are many who are in a similar situation to what jetbox is in. They work for good companies, and are treated well. An association could look into these companies and find out why the folks working there are happy, and why they enjoy working there. They could offer workshops to those in management, or soon to be in management on how to deal with people and to make the workplace enjoyable. That's one way that an association could help the individual. Now jetbox a question for you.
How much say do you have with regards to changing, or amending the CARS ?? How much say do you have when it comes to getting Rev Canada to allow AME's tools to be deductable ?? Would you like someone to be looking for ways to improve your safety ?? How about a clear, intelligent voice when it comes to how the media views our profession ?? These are all things that an association could do for you, even though you work for a great company.

These things will take time and effort to even begin to bear fruit. Therefore we must be patient. This association could do some great things, but it needs to get on it's feet first. First it needs members. Then it needs a board of directors with a clear mandate from the members. The initial goals should be small and attainable, so that momentum is built up. Then once those are attained, it can begin to move onto bigger and better things, such as some of the things that I, and others have mentioned.


Cheers

 

[cyclic monkey]

Biggles, sorry, I wasn't questioning the fact that you were in HEPAC. I just found it contradictory to other statements being made about who could join. As I alluded, I fully support people other than working pilots and engineers being in this organisation, and on the Board. Good luck with your efforts.
(I knew about the "she" thing, but didn't want to use that term until you did).

Randy G and snowedin, good points and I agree that HEPAC needs members and a new board to take it in a new direction if that is what is voted for........but it already has members and a Board, and yet I'm still confused as to it's present direction.
Frankly, I could join the Federal NDP (or maybe Al Qaeda), run for the leadership and make some very desirable changes. But why join/pay membership to an organisation with what I feel are serious credibility issues under it's present management ?
Just because I don't agree with the current image and direction of any of these organisations doesn't mean I have to join and change it. I am merely expressing an opinion, and seeing how the present management feels about it, that's their choice.
Shouldn't we be able to ask questions and have a discussion here without being berated into joining, and called "naysayers" ???

Magseal, good comments as always. Great maths on the other topic. Keep it up. Don't let the biggest "naysayer" of all drag you down. (Despite constantly calling you "my son", I hope he's not your Dad !!)

Bubbleboy, I will be joining you in the background until this much-needed and long-overdue association gets moving in a direction that I can understand.
I hope to see you on the golf course, along with anyone else involved with helicopters, (non-golfers and non-drinkers very welcome of course) !!

Sincerely CM.

 

[Randy_G]

CM let start by saying that I for one don't think anyone should stop asking questions. I'll also apologise if you thought that I was, to use your term, "berating" you to join. That was not my intention. I am not a member of HEPAC, but I do feel that the idea has merit. I was merely stating a few facts, and what my vision of what the association could be.

Frankly, I could join the Federal NDP (or maybe Al Qaeda), run for the leadership and make some very desirable changes. But why join/pay membership to an organisation with what I feel are serious credibility issues under it's present management ?

You could make changes at the federal NDP, but I feel that the membership is quite happy smoking their weed, and hugging trees at the moment to want any change. Credibility issues ?? I have those about every political organisation !!! Seriously though, to be fair to those who are the "board" of HEPAC, they are an interim board. They are only there to guide the organisation until there is a general meeting and elections have taken place. They are not there to chart the future of the organisation, but to merely keep it up and running until the members can elect the 'real' board. It's quite obvious that you feel that BM should step down as the spokeperson for HEPAC. Do you have any suggestions as to a successor ?? What changes would you like to see happen before you would join ?? I'm sure that those who are members would appreciate your input.

Cheers

 

[Randy_G]

I realise that you BlackMac are very passionate about this undertaking. Passion alone isn't enough, it also needs a calm, and considered voice. There are many who are seriously considering membership in this association, but are put off by how those with questions, or doubts are treated. As the head of the association, you are there for them, not the other way around. I'm sure you would not like to be treated in a seemingly disrespectful way. We want our questions answered, and a view of what to expect from those involved in the running of what would be 'our' association.

PS. If members believe that they have to be in love with me or visa-versa I've got news for you.

Well no chance of anyone getting confused sir, but you need them to at least like you, or they will simply not bother. Then all the hard work you put into this will be lost. That would be a shame sir, as I believe that you care more than you like to let on. Yes we are a frustrating bunch, it's usually because we have to rely on ourselves to succeed, and survive in this business.

This is meant to be constructive, to help you, and I hope you take it in the manner for which it is offered. People want assurance that this is the right thing to do, that they will get a benefit from joining. They want a reason to join the association. However, you keep giving us reasons why we shouldn't join with you. We want value for our money, and from what I've been seeing, we wouldn't get it. All questions are valid, and should get a reasoned response.

Cheers