Why is PHX Fleet Service run different than the other Hubs

[Solidarity]

My question to all ...Why is PHX so different than the rest of the system? Lack of support from the Union? We need to be strong in the Company's home town. I see lots of posts on the Negotiations Team and what they are doing or not doing but if we try to show the Company that we have Solidarity what will PHX do?

 

[SparrowHawk]

My question to all ...Why is PHX so different than the rest of the system? Lack of support from the Union? We need to be strong in the Company's home town. I see lots of posts on the Negotiations Team and what they are doing or not doing but if we try to show the Company that we have Solidarity what will PHX do?

Good points, however have you considered the differences might be merely heat related?

 

[necigrad]

At the risk of creating (or revisiting) animosity, I'm going to opine on this. In my humble opinion the personality of PHX (note this is the station as a whole, not necessarily individual members) is PHX first, everyone else second. I don't know why this is, and to a point I agree with it. I totally understand looking out for #1. I seem to recall hearing that back in the TWU CBA days PHX wanted $2/hour for leads in PHX, but didn't give a damn about the rest of the stations; and on top of that felt their leads were more valuable. How true this is I don't know, and I apologize for stirring the pot if it's false. My point though is that PHX is a "me first" station. There may also be some lingering "God complex" where PHX was the center of the universe. I think PHX is getting away from this, but I don't know how well. I do know that some areas handle it pretty well, and that individually my experiences with PHX personnel have been quite positive and mature. Maybe we need a cheerleading squad or something that represents everyone.

 

[Jester]

I'll chime in to what I see how the differences came about... frankly, it was two different companies and with two very different career expectations which were merged together. If this sounds like an East vs. West thing, then I apologize in advance.

Under America West, being a FSA was not a real job... it did not pay well, but the benefits for part-time were good for pass travel and insurance. The Company did not want people to make a career of this position, and Doug Parker even said as such that he didn't want 15-year ramp agents. The East mentality amongst FSAs was that working for an airline was a plum job, especially back in the early 80s, and once one could get their foot in the door, people don't leave because the pay was good, pension benefits, plus the flight benefits. For West it was just a job, and for East it was a career. Therefore, the dedication to the union and solidarity were vastly different because of the views to the same job, and frankly, the hostility towards Management is not as pronounced.

On occaision, I speak with West co-workers/friends who have transferred out to CLT, ATL, PHL, DCA and RDU, which are mostly East operations, and they tell me the attitudes are completely different about their jobs and Management, in general. There may be an eventual change from the West towards the East view now that the job pays for more and people become more entreched in their long-term career, and they may care enough to keep their career instead of just a throw-out job until something better comes along.

So Hypothesizes Jester.

 

[LD3]

The Company did not want people to make a career of this position, and Doug Parker even said as such that he didn't want 15-year ramp agents.

And that my friends is the problem....DP would rather have a revolving door on the ramp. I think it would make much more sense to have a 15 year vet than a person coming in green and being told "don't plan on making this career" If I were told don't plan on making it long term job, then I could give a rats ass if someones bag that fell off a cart sat on the ramp all day long..But 9 out of 10 times when that bag is sitting on the ramp a high timer usually stops to pick it up, why? Because they care. My better half came home one day and told me she stopped to pick up a bag that was sitting in the tug rd, a suit and tie walked over to her and said that 10 tug drivers drove around that bag and kept on going, he asked her why she stopped, she told him that there is no reason that one of our passengers need to get to their destination empty handed, that is 27 years of caring...That's what DP and SK need to realize, there are many many dedicated people working in all departments and with out them this airline will fail....

 

[psa8979]

I'll chime in to what I see how the differences came about... frankly, it was two different companies and with two very different career expectations which were merged together. If this sounds like an East vs. West thing, then I apologize in advance.

Under America West, being a FSA was not a real job... it did not pay well, but the benefits for part-time were good for pass travel and insurance. The Company did not want people to make a career of this position, and Doug Parker even said as such that he didn't want 15-year ramp agents. The East mentality amongst FSAs was that working for an airline was a plum job, especially back in the early 80s, and once one could get their foot in the door, people don't leave because the pay was good, pension benefits, plus the flight benefits. For West it was just a job, and for East it was a career. Therefore, the dedication to the union and solidarity were vastly different because of the views to the same job, and frankly, the hostility towards Management is not as pronounced.

On occaision, I speak with West co-workers/friends who have transferred out to CLT, ATL, PHL, DCA and RDU, which are mostly East operations, and they tell me the attitudes are completely different about their jobs and Management, in general. There may be an eventual change from the West towards the East view now that the job pays for more and people become more entreched in their long-term career, and they may care enough to keep their career instead of just a throw-out job until something better comes along.

So Hypothesizes Jester.

 

[psa8979]

You are so right about your hypothesis Jester. Being a PSA employee at SFO and then U in 88. When we relocated to AWA in 06 terminal 1 the culture and attitude by the AWA F/S was, its not about US, its about ME. In my opinion that attitude was ingrained by DP and the Tempe PLANTATION philosophy towards the help, F/S. My question to you or any PHX former AWA F/S member is; can this empathy be changed ?

 

[baggage engineer]

from what some of my co-workers have said that used to work in phx is alot of the problem is the union
leadership. they said that they are removed from the membership in the sense that they are better or more
important than the rank and file. one of my friends that works in a east hub now says he can't believe how
often he see's the grievance guys and that they actually hold briefings and try to keep the members informed
thats unheard of in phx. Now on the other hand some co-workers that worked in vegas said they knew there
grievance committee well and they seemed to treat everyone equally.

 

[SparrowHawk]

You are so right about your hypothesis Jester. Being a PSA employee at SFO and then U in 88. When we relocated to AWA in 06 terminal 1 the culture and attitude by the AWA F/S was, its not about US, its about ME. In my opinion that attitude was ingrained by DP and the Tempe PLANTATION philosophy towards the help, F/S. My question to you or any PHX former AWA F/S member is; can this empathy be changed ?

Oh they're just tired from fetching Dougie and Scot all those PBR's.

 

[exramper]

Jester and LD3 are completely right..from what I hear about PHX I can't believe people would even get on an airplane there. Take it from someone who was let go with over 30 years service...most of us (we had some slackers)worked our butts off to make this airline something to be proud of. Then along comes college boy Parker and his shadow Isom and they have one thing on their minds..how THEY can be the big guns in the airline industry...lets buy Delta and lets buy American..so they can look like the top dogs. Never mind the real people that made this airline what it is. This idea that we are the best and everyone else sucks has flowed down to the rest of the employees in PHX. The IAM is bad but in this case I lay the blame on piss poor management.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Never mind the real people that made this airline what it is. This idea that we are the best and everyone else sucks has flowed down to the rest of the employees in PHX. The IAM is bad but in this case I lay the blame on piss poor management.

I, personally, have had one gate supervisor fired. She should really be in federal prison.

PHX is off the charts for federal violations. There are a very few good supervisors. I can see the really bad management that tempe tries to spread around the system. Many times the supervisors should be, um, realigned with reality in any necessary manner. That includes pilots.

As a pilot, I support any employee willing to shuck the nazi directives for the customer. I have and will give them cover, if they need it.

Tempe is unsafe. No other option.

They pressure a crew to close the entry door prior to closing the cargo doors. Tempe had a big meeting with everyone from the VP operations on down last December. A few FAA dudes managed to attend. At the end of the meeting, the company freaks agreed that closing the main entry door was okay, despite evidence otherwise. At the end, an FAA dude stood up and said, well, while what you advocate is currently legal, we do not think you are exhibiting good judgement, in any sense.

So, we have a company willing to compromise safety in order to ensure the CEO's on-time bonus, a pathetic situation if ever I have seen one, despite the fact that closing a cargo door before the entry ensures a departure delay of exactly zero minutes, while placing the passengers and crew at risk. Bastards.

 

[luvn737s]

Has anyone here stopped to talk to PHX employees and find out the story behind the story? Did they tell you about cross-utilization? Of building something from nothing from day 1? From buying into the company literally (stock purchase required) and emotionally, only to feel betrayed during bankruptcy and facing a CEO in Bill Franke that intimated that YOU were the problem, when 6 months prior, YOU were the person that made the airline run at all? Of crazy crap like the Scottsdale Flyer or mainline Dash 8s. Did they tell you about working for a company that was so cool in the beginning that you were proud to say you worked for America West, only to watch it slide into a permanent position on Jay Leno's joke list? How a union became a necessity rather than a choice and that your management had the gall to try and play the loyalty card after all you had been through?

Most of the east employees got on this not-so-merry go-round long after it had started up and there experience is far different from the average west 25-yr employee. So before you condemn your fellow employee, get to know them and find out where they've been. And remember that this is a new airline, not merely an annex of the east.

 

[Jester]

...the average west 25-yr employee. So before you condemn your fellow employee, get to know them and find out where they've been.

Not many of them, at least, in FSA for a reason... not the least of which America West wasn't around long. Then throw is some very low pay for a very long time, and 25 year FSAs are about as unique as London broil on a domestic flight being served in coach! Does anyone know the highest seniority former West FSA still working?

I remember when America West required new employees to purchase, I believe, 10% of their base salary in company stock, and the company would even loan the money and deduct it later from wages. Nothing like low pay and a 10% deduction for the first year on the job. Of course, the kick in the pants was when America West filed BK, making everyone's stock worthless, and STILL demanded repayment on worthless stock! That was a real morale booster!

This was a throw away job... I recall when I first came to work for America West and I was nearly dead last on the seniority list to start but 3 years later, I was about half way-up the list! It was not because of some massive expansion of flights, but rather the large turnover rate. My FSA class had less than half of them still around after six months, and after one year another 50% were gone... that was rather typical of most classes as I understand it. The vast majority of people simply quit or just disappeared, and very few were actually fired.

My point being it is difficult to look for some dedication to an union to protect their job, when people didn't care much about the job in the first place. That dedication to the union hasn't really been around much from the beginning and over the years, and it will take time, assuming the IAM leadership ever earns the respect of the Membership.

So Repeats Jester.

 

[necigrad]

In my opinion that attitude was ingrained by DP and the Tempe PLANTATION philosophy towards the help

Parker didn't start it, though he may or may not foster it. It's been around at least since I got here in '98.

Now on the other hand some co-workers that worked in vegas said they knew there grievance committee well and they seemed to treat everyone equally.

I don't always agree with the grievance committee, but this is correct. They are there, they listen, they fight. They take the phone calls at dinner after work and on the weekend when they're trying to relax. They take the time with any employee has an issue, listen to the situation and get a full understanding.

Does anyone know the highest seniority former West FSA still working?

As of a few years ago S0006 was still working. In LAS S0612 is still here, but out on OJI. There's a lot of west guys in LAS with 20+ years, and I'm almost positive that there are some 25+ year peeps in PHX.

 

[bagchucker]

I can't compare PHX Fleet Service to East Hubs because I have never worked any East cities. I have had the opportunity to work in PHX on the ramp within the past 5 years and after the merger of HP/US. (I wish I was there now and not sitting out on furlough waiting to be called back!)
What I noticed about PHX Fleet is that including cargo and leads, there were about 1000 people in this combined group at the time I was there, and it was a complete fusion of different personalities and mentalities. Full-time, Part-time, students, retirees (from previous careers), commuters, people there just for flight benes, people there dependant on every penny earned and picking up every available extra hour, etc. Mix all that together and you DO NOT have a common focus amongst the group. Everyone has a different agenda and, therefore, beat to a different drum so to speak. As a whole, most people are really good people and quite approachable. There was a union presence and you knew who they were and how to contact them if you needed their assistance. There were stewards available on each shift and the rep was out and about making contact with the employees. It was actually a decent place to work and I look forward to possibly working there again if I get recalled anytime soon for Full-time work.

I think the complex make-up of the population of Fleet employees there contributes to the perception that is "run" different and unique to the other Hubs. I don't know that I support the idea that it is made up of "ME, ME, ME" first. It is just a melting pot of personalities and agendas that there really isn't a shared concept of how it should be. Just my $.02, it may have changed quite a bit since I left a few years ago.