Why No Stock?

emily

Member
Apr 8, 2003
40
0
www.usaviation.com
I was dissapointed that United Pilots proposed no stock swap for pay concessions. In 1993 Northwest Pilots gave a 15.5% pay cut and got stock in return. A few years later the stock price went up an it was a win win for the company and the Pilot group. Why didn''t United propose the same thing?
 

iflyjetz

Senior
Oct 2, 2002
422
0
You''re kidding, right?
Ever hear of ESOP?
Besides, there''s profit sharing. Not the best solution, but a helluva lot better than ''investing'' in airline stock.
 

FWAAA

Veteran
Jan 5, 2003
10,251
3,900
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On 4/8/2003 3:02:57 PM emily wrote:

I was dissapointed that United Pilots proposed no stock swap for pay concessions. In 1993 Northwest Pilots gave a 15.5% pay cut and got stock in return. A few years later the stock price went up an it was a win win for the company and the Pilot group. Why didn''t United propose the same thing?

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Welcome back to earth - where have you been?

Certain UA workgroups (including pilots and mechanics) exchanged wage concessions for 55% of the company several years ago in a well-intentioned but unsuccessful ESOP. That stock is now essentially worthless.

Think they''re going to fall for the same trick again??
 
U

UAL_TECH

Guest
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On 4/8/2003 4:43:11 PM Segue wrote:

Perhaps if they try again and got it right:

1) Real shares that can be sold.
2) No labor groups on BOD


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[SIZE= 9pt]
Segue,[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE= 9pt]The ‘ONLY’ way to get it right is for a creation of a “United Unionâ€￾ which would include ‘ALL’ groups. [/SIZE]
[SIZE= 9pt]No ALPA, AFA, IAM, and etc… [/SIZE]
[SIZE= 9pt]If this would have occurred in the original conception of the ESOP, then it might have been possible for all groups (including management) to act more like owners instead of unionized thugs.[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 9pt]Of course, this will not happen, so it is a moot point.[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE= 9pt]IMHO,
[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 9pt]




From ''My World Point of View" - UAL_TECH

* The ESOP buyout was a stopgap measure for stopping ''The Wolf'' from selling off UAL piecemeal (Sacrifice pay, and work rules for jobs). ''The Wolf'' tried to buy UAL with the Coniston Partners but failed. His second attempt included ALPA, and failed again. (causing the market crash in 1989) Being frustrated, ''The Wolf'' put UAL assets up for sale. He began with the selling the flight kitchens to Hobbs International, had buyers lined up for selling off of the Engine Overhaul Shop in SFO, and was looking for other opportunities to part out the company for cash to increase ''Shareholder Value''. Then came the winning ESOP transaction.
ALPA, UAL Management, and the IAM put the ''deal'' together. [/SIZE]

* Under this ''deal'', ''The Wolf'' was to be replaced by Greenwald, each group was promised a seat on the board, and an industry leading seamless contract at the end of the ESOP period, (Do not remember how many Million$ that ''The Wolf'' received for his part.) In exchange, ESOP participants gave immediate pay reductions, and work rules to pay off the ESOP loan (average of 15-18% ???).

* IAM members were split on the ESOP buy in, and one of the circumstances that led to the IAM ratification was the workers of the flight kitchens. The flight kitchen workers were promised a 44 week severance package under the ESOP buyout plan, which was limited to 8 weeks at the time (someone correct me if I am wrong).
What would you do?

* FadeIn - FadeOut : ESOP is voted in by ALPA, UAL Management (like they had a choice ), and the IAM. Kitchens are sold, and ''The Wolf'' is out.

* IAM Membership immediately requested to begin the process of selecting their ''Board Representative''. The IAM National divulges their ''Golden Vote'' right, makes their ''own'' selection (Peterpaul) without the input of the membership. Membership is not happy with this ''hidden'' caveat in the ESOP agreement. Thus begins the feeling of being used, lied to, and misled by the union.

* ESOP PERIOD: 1994-1999 Although initially pessimistic, UAL employees live with the decision. Many advancements in employee involvement, and quality of life issues were made. All in all, it was a pretty good place to be (except for the salary issue).

* End of ESOP: Before the exit of Greenwald, Greenwald recommends that Edwardson be his replacement. ALPA, and the IAM had issues with Edwardson (mainly due to his resistance to mid-term wage agreements), and the BOD agrees on Goodwin. (Edwardson moves on with quite an impressive record after leaving UAL).

* Contract negations begin with ALPA and the IAM. Both ALPA, and IAM are looking forward to a ''Seamless Contract, and Industry leading wages'' as was promised under the ESOP.

* May 2000: UAL Management, and salaried employees received profit sharing, and wage increases of 15-35% under ''Vision 2000''.

* As Goodwin is focused on the USAir merger, he ignores/defers the ALPA and IAM negotiations. (So much for the ''Seamless Contract, and Industry leading wages'' promise). This causes friction between employees, and management (yep, it all came back). The more that ALPA/IAM pushed for resolution, the more they were ignored. Being upset for the broken promise/agreement, ALPA began a ''work to the rule'' program (known by some as ''the summer of hell''). Putting pressure on the UAL operations caused Goodwin to respond, but being upset (pissed off) at being put off. Caused ALPA to press for more than it would have if UAL had fulfilled their commitment as soon as it became amendable. (What I have been told by ALPA people.) Goodwin agrees to ALPA''s demands, gives them all they want, and gets back to the USAir merger and creation of Avolar (still ignores/defers IAM negotiations).

* With some overlap into the ''Summer of Hell'', the IAM Membership decided that maybe the IAM was not their best representative , and wanted AMFA to represent them . Goodwin used this opportunity as an excuse to further ignore/defer IAM negotiations. During this period, in an effort to heighten Goodwin''s attention to a contact resolution, there was an IAM ''work to the rule'' program also. However, instead of getting Goodwin to restart negations, Goodwin decided to put a court imposed injunction on them instead. (So much for employee ''Owner'' relations)

* September 11, 2001 : Osama and his wackoban followers kill themselves, and approx. 3000 other human beings in some kind of a sick, and sadistic world statement. (Save my opinion on this for another post.)

IMHO and personal observations.
[SIZE= 12pt] UAL_TECH
[/SIZE]
 
U

UAL_TECH

Guest


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On 4/8/2003 6:17:56 PM N230UA wrote:

EXCELLENT summary, UAL_TECH.

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N230UA,

Thanks for the support!!!

You keep them flying, and we will do our best to make them flyable!!!

Take Care,
UAL_TECH
 

ual747mech

Senior
Nov 26, 2002
279
0
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On 4/8/2003 4:43:11 PM Segue wrote:

Perhaps if they try again and got it right:

1) Real shares that can be sold.


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Now that would be a win win situation for everybody. Even uncle sam would''ve have been a winner in that situation. The capital gain taxes would have been astronomical had we been able sell during the profitable years.
 
U

UAL_TECH

Guest
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On 4/8/2003 8:26:33 PM ual747mech wrote:

UAL_TECH, The Wall Street Journal could use you Good Post!!

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ual747mech,
Thanks for the sentiment, however, it appears that weight of truth in the ''WSJ'' is less of a factor than selling papers. If anyone feels that this summation is of value, I would be appreciative of his and/or her plagiarism to perpetuate our story.

Take Care, and watch your back,


UAL_TECH
 

ual747mech

Senior
Nov 26, 2002
279
0
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On 4/8/2003 9:15:49 PM UAL_TECH wrote:


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ual747mech,
Thanks for the sentiment, however, it appears that weight of truth in the ''WSJ'' is less of a factor than selling papers.
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Precisely That''s why I said they could or should have you to write like it is or was instead of the half truth half lies and full of speculation we all read in the paper.
 
U

UAL_TECH

Guest
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On 4/8/2003 11:19:24 PM ual747mech wrote:


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On 4/8/2003 9:15:49 PM UAL_TECH wrote:


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ual747mech,
Thanks for the sentiment, however, it appears that weight of truth in the 'WSJ' is less of a factor than selling papers.
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Precisely That's why I said they could or should have you to write like it is or was instead of the half truth half lies and full of speculation we all read in the paper.

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Would be nice if the truth would slip out once in awhile .

Thanks Bro!!!

Take Care,
 
OP
E

emily

Member
Apr 8, 2003
40
0
www.usaviation.com
I thought it was obvious I wasn''t talking about the ESOP. I''m talking about the recent T/A. You know, the one with 30% pay cuts. Why no stock for the that? American''s T/A contains stock options.
Also, I disagree with your premise about airline stock. For the airlines that make it through this, their stocks should be among the best stock buys on the planet.
Time will tell.
 

ual747mech

Senior
Nov 26, 2002
279
0
"Any stock is good, as long as u buy''em high and u sell''em low" "oops I meant buy low and sell high"
 

xUT

Veteran
Dec 28, 2009
8,135
3,828
SanFranFreako, KommieFornia
I thought it was obvious I wasn''t talking about the ESOP. I''m talking about the recent T/A. You know, the one with 30% pay cuts. Why no stock for the that? American''s T/A contains stock options.
Also, I disagree with your premise about airline stock. For the airlines that make it through this, their stocks should be among the best stock buys on the planet.
Time will tell.

Hey Emily,
How did that work out?
B) xUT
 
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