Why should West agree to a fence with East

[AAA#6]

I just don't understand it. East doesn't get the outcome they want, they trash HP for it, and now want us to help negotiate a fence agreement. Why on Earth would an HP pilot place a restriction on himself to appease a group of pilots (East) that not once bargained in good faith. Remember the HP MEC tried to avoid mediation and arbitration, but the East wanted to play Philly hardball. Ok fine. No problem. Business is business.

I understand your attrition argument. I don't agree with it, but I see your argument. What I see is your attrition argument with your current fleet size. But your argument doesn't hold if growth aircraft are added to the airline. There is no way EAST is entitled to additional growth aircraft above and beyond WEST.

If DP wants to grow US and add a substantial amount of GROWTH aircraft to the eastern hubs, then HP pilots are entitled to fly post merger growth aircraft just as a any U pilot would be. Thus the HP pilot is entitled to enter an eastern base just as PSA guys want to be in PHX or LAS. I would figure this is may be why Nicolau didn't put high fences in.

You can't have both attrition and growth locked into a fence agreement.

Signing a fence that restricts us to make a living on growth can't be allowed.

 

[Piedmont1984]

First, NO ONE is entitled to a damn thing in life. EAST has been finding this out for the last 4 to 7 years depending on your outlook.

Actually you can have ANYTHING you NEGOTIATE.

Here is my final thought and it comes from and old saying "Good Fences Make Better Neighbors"

Just a thought.

I think the "good fences" reference comes from a Robert Frost poem.

 

[autofixer]

You can have both. Fences would only apply to current flying and equipment. If there is future growth (and it should be real growth not just equipment replacement) that should be accessed equally or proportionally or by the new list; however and agreement can be hammered out.

 

[Pi brat]

I just don't understand it. East doesn't get the outcome they want, they trash HP for it, and now want us to help negotiate a fence agreement. Why on Earth would an HP pilot place a restriction on himself to appease a group of pilots (East) that not once bargained in good faith. Remember the HP MEC tried to avoid mediation and arbitration, but the East wanted to play Philly hardball. Ok fine. No problem. Business is business.

I understand your attrition argument. I don't agree with it, but I see your argument. What I see is your attrition argument with your current fleet size. But your argument doesn't hold if growth aircraft are added to the airline. There is no way EAST is entitled to additional growth aircraft above and beyond WEST.

If DP wants to grow US and add a substantial amount of GROWTH aircraft to the eastern hubs, then HP pilots are entitled to fly post merger growth aircraft just as a any U pilot would be. Thus the HP pilot is entitled to enter an eastern base just as PSA guys want to be in PHX or LAS. I would figure this is may be why Nicolau didn't put high fences in.

You can't have both attrition and growth locked into a fence agreement.

Signing a fence that restricts us to make a living on growth can't be allowed.

AAA,

You make some good points. If there is growth, all that are a part of the new company should benefit from it. The problem is DP has said there will be limited growth. I think the few new international routes will be offset by the bottom 737/AB flying replaced with EMB-190s, at rates less than Mesa's top of scale.

Should the west guys negotiate fences now? I really don't know, but I don't think the east would. But, that kind of thinking has us living with LOA 93.

If I were a west pilot I think I would say "No, they played the game and lost, we have what we have". If I could be a west pilot with my east experience I think I would say "What is there to be gained from negotiating limited fences with the east? Could it help prevent the loss of PHX/LAS upgrades to senior east guys? Could taking the high road help us in the next merger? Could it help us come together and get a better joint contaract?" I don't know the answers to those questions. Only you guys can answer them.

Whatever you guys do, I hope you say no to the companies proposed EMB-190 rates. They are not growth airplanes, they are replacements for the bottom 737/AB flying. They are now being used against SW in PHL. Remember, about 9 737s are coming off the property this year.

Good luck to us all.

 

[LCC_#1]

Thus the HP pilot is entitled to enter an eastern base just as PSA guys want to be in PHX or LAS.

This coming from a guy who does nothing but throw around the word entitlement to the east. You're so full of it.

 

[AAA#6]

This coming from a guy who does nothing but throw around the word entitlement to the east. You're so full of it.

Hang on there dude. Read the rest of line your quoting back at me. You have PSA folks just as interested to get East. I recall jumpseating with a few that lived in the LA Basin and Bay area. If West were to get 10 new 737's or whatever in PHX to fly whereever...shouldn't they have a crack at getting to them. I don't have a problem with EAST coming into PHX/LAS. I think the number of transfers are going to be small, but I don't like agreeing to restrictions that DP can play against us, and I don't like signing off on my future

All I said and I will clarify is that if the aircraft are REAL growth aircraft (not replacement, not downsized equipment) then both sides should have equal shot at the growth. That is all I said.

All that said, having west hammer out a fence issue is going to be tough. Your asking them to right a wrong that they didn't do. The beef is with your MEC, the MEC strategy, and Nicolau. The HP pilots did what any group would have done...that is to make a persuasive argument to protect their interests. That is life..and you can't blame them for that. If the sides were turned would you take this so called high road? Obviously we will never know...but somehow I doubt it.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Hang on there dude. Read the rest of line your quoting back at me. You have PSA folks just as interested to get East. I recall jumpseating with a few that lived in the LA Basin and Bay area. If West were to get 10 new 737's or whatever in PHX to fly whereever...shouldn't they have a crack at getting to them. I don't have a problem with EAST coming into PHX/LAS. I think the number of transfers are going to be small, but I don't like agreeing to restrictions that DP can play against us, and I don't like signing off on my future

All I said and I will clarify is that if the aircraft are REAL growth aircraft (not replacement, not downsized equipment) then both sides should have equal shot at the growth. That is all I said.

All that said, having west hammer out a fence issue is going to be tough. Your asking them to right a wrong that they didn't do. The beef is with your MEC, the MEC strategy, and Nicolau. The HP pilots did what any group would have done...that is to make a persuasive argument to protect their interests. That is life..and you can't blame them for that. If the sides were turned would you take this so called high road? Obviously we will never know...but somehow I doubt it.

If you look at the two polls, East to West and West to East; it looks like a wash. Cannot vouch for the accuracy of them, but maybe it is a good indicator.

 

[autofixer]

I think that most of the PSA guys (517) have moved East and now have roots here...I think. Who really knows what is in one's mind; however, commuting to PHL will make anyone challange their wants and desires and just move. Would they, could they sell their house in PHL area and move West...who knows, but I doubt it with only a couple of years left to retirement.

 

[AWA320]

I just don't understand it. East doesn't get the outcome they want, they trash HP for it, and now want us to help negotiate a fence agreement. Why on Earth would an HP pilot place a restriction on himself to appease a group of pilots (East) that not once bargained in good faith. Remember the HP MEC tried to avoid mediation and arbitration, but the East wanted to play Philly hardball. Ok fine. No problem. Business is business.

I understand your attrition argument. I don't agree with it, but I see your argument. What I see is your attrition argument with your current fleet size. But your argument doesn't hold if growth aircraft are added to the airline. There is no way EAST is entitled to additional growth aircraft above and beyond WEST.

If DP wants to grow US and add a substantial amount of GROWTH aircraft to the eastern hubs, then HP pilots are entitled to fly post merger growth aircraft just as a any U pilot would be. Thus the HP pilot is entitled to enter an eastern base just as PSA guys want to be in PHX or LAS. I would figure this is may be why Nicolau didn't put high fences in.

You can't have both attrition and growth locked into a fence agreement.

Signing a fence that restricts us to make a living on growth can't be allowed.

Not really even up for debate. There is resolution on the west that states that no deals will be negotiated that change the ORIGINAL award. The arbitrator only placed one fence in this case and any more would in fact change the original award thus violate the resolution.

 

[autofixer]

And there is no debate in the East, the award will not be implemented as is. Thus, we have a stand off.

 

[AWA320]

And there is no debate in the East, the award will not be implemented as is. Thus, we have a stand off.

Hmmmm, That almost sounds like bad faith!! I feel a receivership looming, it's in the air I can feel it

 

[320driver]

QUOTE(LCC_#1 @ May 23 2007, 08:46 AM)

This coming from a guy who does nothing but throw around the word entitlement to the east. You're so full of it.

Hang on there dude. Read the rest of line your quoting back at me. You have PSA folks just as interested to get East. I recall jumpseating with a few that lived in the LA Basin and Bay area. If West were to get 10 new 737's or whatever in PHX to fly whereever...shouldn't they have a crack at getting to them. I don't have a problem with EAST coming into PHX/LAS. I think the number of transfers are going to be small, but I don't like agreeing to restrictions that DP can play against us, and I don't like signing off on my future

All I said and I will clarify is that if the aircraft are REAL growth aircraft (not replacement, not downsized equipment) then both sides should have equal shot at the growth. That is all I said.

All that said, having west hammer out a fence issue is going to be tough. Your asking them to right a wrong that they didn't do. The beef is with your MEC, the MEC strategy, and Nicolau. The HP pilots did what any group would have done...that is to make a persuasive argument to protect their interests. That is life..and you can't blame them for that. If the sides were turned would you take this so called high road? Obviously we will never know...but somehow I doubt it.

Why would you even respond to this a&& wipe. It(he or she) is a flight attendant with no say in the matter. Hey sweetie stay out of grown people busniess and go tend your galley.

 

[CactusFlyr]

East Guys, We still need a good reason as to why you think the West should agree to a fence, or anything. None of the entitlement, age, LOS, burn the place down, etc, stuff either. What would the West get in return. You don't get something for nothing.

 

[AWA320]

[quote name='CactusFlyr' date='May 24 2007, 02:52 PM' stuff either. What would the West get in return. You don't get something for nothing.
[/quote]

We get the privledge of being in their presences, isn't that reward enough? :down:

 

[CactusFlyr]

Anyone, Anyone.... Bueller??