Why Tim Nelson is Dangerous to IAM-represented employees at United Airlines

[737823]

Do you get a sense from the unorganized CO agents that they would rather remain non-union than join the IAM given what has gone on in the past 18 months? It's not like the IAM had overwhelming support at United either, were the election held under the old (pre-2010) NMB rules the union wouldn't have been certified.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Do you get a sense from the unorganized CO agents that they would rather remain non-union than join the IAM given what has gone on in the past 18 months?

In my experience, no...

I've seen a few IBT holdouts, and a couple people who still prefer FTW, but most I run into seem to follow in the vein of T5's posts here; support being represented, not happy with this last T/A, demanding accountability from the 141 leadership...

 

[737823]

A blast from the past:

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/18/us/passenger-service-workers-unionize-at-united-airlines.html

19,000 emplpyees (standalone UA), 113 stations and 16 res centers and look where we are today. Very sad.

The combined ranks are roughly 17k, and if Pantoja, Delaney, Levy et al had their way it would be seven stations and untold number of jobs lost.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm a champion of organized labor in this country. That's nothing new.

and I commend you and the others you stand with for your roles in and commitment to the labor movement.... it is precisely because we believe the labor movement has made a difference that we participate in this forum.

I would be interested in reading works from both of you if you would be so kind as to indicate where those can be found... if other than on this board.

WRT CO, let's remember they rebuilt a whole new company and did it quite successfully... to a great degree without the labor problems of the rest of the industry.

But CO was too small to compete as a standalone and also was watching its cost advantage be eroded as other carriers lowered costs and as CO's increased due to the increased time after CO's bankruptcies.

Many former CO employees will never "settle in" to the more heavily unionized and traditional labor environment that exists at UA and which was not the norm for most of CO's employees. Some people never adjust to the cultural changes that are part of merging companies with very different labor perspectives.... as long as everyone acknowledges that reality and respects the different perspectives of each, there can be peace.

 

[737823]

WT,
Tim is disliked in certain circles on this forum because he holds the IAM leadership (specifically DL 141) accountable and believes their loyalty does not lie with the membership but rather amongst themselves to advance their own careers within the union structure. I think Tim is pro-union but believes organized labor in its current state does not deliver for the constituents they aspire to serve. A number of people on this forum seem to believe the membership should just be grateful the IAM allows them to pay dues and shouldn't expect much in return.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

I haven't read near as much from Tim Nelson as I have from other labor leaders but based on what you and Kev have said about him, I find a lot about him that I could like and respect.

Again, I'd liked to read some of the summary statements of where he and Kev believe the labor movement should go, esp. in the airline industry, and how it can regain the significant amount that it has lost and continues to lose.

I believe that accountability and turning the ship around is exactly what leadership is about - and if Tim and others succeed at doing them, then I have nothing but respect for them.

But there is also "external accountability" that involves allowing organizations to be open to the comments of those outside of that organization. By definition, those who participate in labor discussions on this forum, which isn't restricted to just labor leaders or airline employees, open themselves and their organizations to external accountability.

I have to say, though, that I am concerned whenever I read threads like this that are critical of one person in an organization. If Tim is really that powerful and influential that the organization has no checks and balances, then there is an organizational problem. Somehow, I doubt that really exists.

 

[Kev3188]

I think Tim is pro-union but believes organized labor in its current state does not deliver for the constituents they aspire to serve.

Based on what he writes here & elsewhere, that's a correct assessment.

 

[T5towbar]

In my experience, no...

I've seen a few IBT holdouts, and a couple people who still prefer FTW, but most I run into seem to follow in the vein of T5's posts here; support being represented, not happy with this last T/A, demanding accountability from the 141 leadership...

You are right, Kev.
For years, a lot of us wanted a union, and we (the union supporters) fought and fought to get one. TWU (at the time was a good choice, but that drive lost) The momentum swung around 2008. The IAM could have won an easy election if they had just CAMPAIGNED! But they were preoccupied with organizing Delta, and around the same time there was a Boeing strike they had to deal with. This union, as it is well documented, can't multitask. Tim said that they used the same tired old organizing strategies, and he was right. So the IBT campaigned and won. But of course the contract was rushed (even though they have fought for 7 stations that was on the chopping block the day after we won representation), it was voted in. Even though a lot of people did not care to vote. Bottom line is we have apathy on the sCO side, because some people just go about their jobs every day and don't care about the politics that a union brings. We didn't have that before. But now we do.

Some of us are still IBT supporters. Most of us are strong unionists. I think that our members can be very helpful and bring some life into this tired District. (once we are able to get into positions of importance) Bottom line, this District has to be accountable to it's members and by the way things are looking, they are negotiating from a position of weakness (with these LOA's) and giving up the metal. I thought negotiations was about give and take. A good contract is one where BOTH sides don't get everything they want. Looks like at least one side is getting it all.......and it sure ain't ours!

 

[737823]

Unclear what you are referring to, please provide link(s) to such post(s).

Josh

Still waiting. WT is also interested in Tim.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Go look for itself, its all over this board.

 

[737823]

Link please.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

You know your way around this board's search function, Josh...

 

[WorldTraveler]

I for one am not interested in reading thru thousands of pages of labor-mgmt and labor-labor-labor conflict trying to find a few gems that might give me some insight about your views of the labor movement.

But beyond me and Josh, this board is frequented by thousands of people who won't ever take the time to post and certainly aren't going to search for a few ideas.

It's an opportunity for you and anyone else who wants to promote your views of the labor movement in a cogent, succint form, including Mr. Nelson.

It's free marketing in a world where the ability to get your message across is usually drowned out by the noise of others.

You've been ASKED to provide either links or a succint summary (or as long as you want) of what you believe is wrong with the airline labor movement and what can be done to fix it.

More specifically, you've been ASKED by some of the strongest critics of the labor movement on this board.

Don't turn into a pissing match in a contest of wills. Take up the offer and answer the request.

And if you don't choose to do what has been asked, then don't complain when others succeed at getting their message across because they take the time to articulate why they believe what they believe.

 

[737823]

700 is the one making the charge that Tim's actions have been a hindrance to labor, so he should provide solid facts to back up his charge. Where off this board does Tim post? I know he talks about some group on Facebook, but where specifically (off this forum) were you referring to Kev?

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

I for one am not interested in reading thru thousands of pages of labor-mgmt and labor-labor-labor conflict trying to find a few gems that might give me some insight about your views of the labor movement.

But beyond me and Josh, this board is frequented by thousands of people who won't ever take the time to post and certainly aren't going to search for a few ideas.

It's an opportunity for you and anyone else who wants to promote your views of the labor movement in a cogent, succint form, including Mr. Nelson.

It's free marketing in a world where the ability to get your message across is usually drowned out by the noise of others.

You've been ASKED to provide either links or a succint summary (or as long as you want) of what you believe is wrong with the airline labor movement and what can be done to fix it.

More specifically, you've been ASKED by some of the strongest critics of the labor movement on this board.

Don't turn into a pissing match in a contest of wills. Take up the offer and answer the request.

And if you don't choose to do what has been asked, then don't complain when others succeed at getting their message across because they take the time to articulate why they believe what they believe.

GMAFB.

I'm not going to rehash here what I've written hundreds of times on this site- most of which you have participated in. but just for you-and your conveniently faltering memory- here's the Cliff note version:

Bottom-up organizing/agitating
Direct action
Dismantling of ossified leadership structure(s)
Elimination of "no raid" clause
Being "union" means inside/outside of workplace/shop floor & community both

Now stop playing coy- it's beneath even you.

700 is the one making the charge that Tim's actions have been a hindrance to labor, so he should provide solid facts to back up his charge.

He wasn't kidding when he said he's posted that stuff all over the place. Take my word for it- or don't- but you won't have to go far to find it.

Since you've particpated (and still do) in threads where it's come up, I have to believe you are simply trying to get him to waste time (re)posting the same stuff in this here, just as WT is doing.

Where off this board does Tim post? I know he talks about some group on Facebook, but where specifically (off this forum) were you referring to Kev?

I was referring to FB...