AAA Alpa Thread 10/19-10/25

[Edward]

Here is the new thread. Please stay on topic & not get personal.

 

[electricjet98]

October 19, 2007
Captain John H. McIlvenna, Chairman
America West Master Executive Council
Air Line Pilots Association, International
Two Gateway, Suite 340
432 N. 44th St.
Phoenix, AZ 85008 Captain Jack Stephan, Chairman
US Airways Master Executive Council
Air Line Pilots Association, International
One Thorn Run Center, Suite 400
1187 Thorn Run Extension
Corapolis, PA 15108

RE: US Airways and America West Joint Negotiating Committee Meeting

Dear John and Jack:

With all the controversy since early May, it’s easy to lose sight of our simple objective: to negotiate a new contract that both pilot groups will approve. As the Executive Council determined last month, the new agreement will include the Nicolau award. But the Executive Council also said that the new agreement must include terms for career protection and that parity and parity plus are a top priority.

In other words, it’s all about putting together a negotiated single agreement that will reverse years of bankruptcy and ATSB concessions and get all US Airways pilots the pay, job security, benefits, work rules, and career protection they deserve. No one is trying to “buy†seniority. ALPA is trying to ensure that both career advancement and economic gains are protected and that families who have suffered under the current contracts can recover from bankruptcy and ATSB hell.

ALPA Merger Policy was discussed, debated, and enacted by pilots like us. When there are problems negotiating a merged collective bargaining agreement, Merger Policy provides for the President to call a meeting of the Joint Negotiating Committee. There plainly are such problems, and I am calling that meeting.

These problems will be solved by ALPA leaders from both pilot groups meeting and talking directly with each other. The two groups have and will continue to have the support of my office and any other ALPA resource necessary. You have used the outside counsel of three labor law and merger firms, the Wilson Center for Public Research, ALPA’s general counsel, and other ALPA negotiating, economic and financial, legal, retirement, and communication experts. Current and retired pilot leaders with vast experience at other airlines and with similar problems have also participated. These resources will continue to be available. With them, there is no reason that we can’t solve these problems if both pilot groups commit to doing so.

To this end, I am convening an expedited internal meeting of the Joint Negotiating Committee in Washington, DC, commencing on October 29, 2007, and concluding on November 6, 2007, or earlier if the work is done. However, I won’t call this a meeting of a blue ribbon panel, or the Rice Committee, or any other special name. It is simply the Joint Negotiating Committee meeting that is provided for in Merger Policy. I expect this committee to roll up its sleeves and get to work on both contract and career protection issues and to do so without asserting positions, demanding sequential treatment of issues, finger-pointing, or threats. No one is prejudiced when all the issues are discussed at the same time. Let’s quit fighting with each other and prepare to do battle with the real enemy across the bargaining table. Each MEC is free to send, and I expect each of you to add, other committee experts to assist with this critically important work. I will appoint facilitators and staff to assist, as necessary, and will use my authority to appoint a JNC chairman should the committee require one to complete its work by November 6.

I will also call the two MECs to meetings at a location to be determined on November 8–9. The purpose of these meetings will be to consider and act on recommendations from the Joint Negotiating Committee and review our preparation for JNC negotiations scheduled for the week of November 12. I expect that we will be prepared for and enter into good-faith bargaining with management that week. Our members deserve and expect that from us.

The Executive Council has directed that the Nicolau award be submitted and defended. While input from both MECs is welcome, the office of the President will comply with the Executive Council’s determinations and submit the award in a way that is consistent with the negotiating timeline outlined and in accordance with ALPA’s past practice. The President’s office will also determine the timing for assuming defense of outstanding litigation in light of the procedural issues now being addressed in the courts. I will not allow ALPA policy and individual rights to be prejudiced by delay in these matters.

After five hours with the AAA MEC last Friday, I detailed two courses of action. I most fervently support ALPA representatives from both pilot groups creating solutions that lead to one strong US Airways ALPA leadership and pilot group.

Finally, let me repeat something that I’ve said several times lately. This is one union. You and your MEC members are elected officers and elected representatives of that union. It’s time for all of us to stand up for our union—the one that built our profession. I fully expect those elected and appointed ALPA representatives and committee members to honor and fulfill their obligations to this union or to step aside.

It’s time to get the job done. You have the financial and fraternal backing of your fellow 55,000 ALPA brothers and sisters from each of our 39 other airlines. I am proud to speak on their behalf and promise you their continued support.

In solidarity,


Captain John H. Prater
President

 

[Cactus737]

I'm not sure why you East guys hate Prater so much. He keeps buying you more delays so you can enjoy "your attrition".

 

[AAA73Pilot]

AAA73,

It has been an interesting exchange of ideas and I think you're a very good spokesman for the USAPA argument. We'll all have to wait and see how it goes. From what little I have read it just seems to me that the issue your organization has with ALPA is mostly in how your local reps and MEC are implementing ALPA at your property. I haven't seen this kind of complaint or dissatisfaction at other ALPA carriers rise to the level of action.

Thanks. Dissatisfaction you say? It's more like the smoldering embers have finally erupted to an outright bonfire. This has been building for years. It only took a catalyst. And Prater, Rice and the rest of the good ole boys have only been their own worst enemy. For me this started long before Prater and CAL was welcomed back into the ALPA fold.

My only point to anyone considering voting is to look at the mechanics of ALPA and the proposed USAPA. I believe that USAPA will provide for an increased level of membership participation which will be important if any issue short of contract votes is to be moved. I also maintain that the average pilot member does not have such a level of interest to have to participate to the level that USAPA will require in order to prevent stagnation, corruption, abuse of power, secret agendas and most importantly the hording and select dissemination of information required to make an informed decision as a voter.

Everything you mention, we already have under ALPA. The structure is flawed and IMO cannot be repaired. Stagnation? For who? Term limits are in the proposed C&BL's. Corruption, abuse of power? Look at what we already have. Secret agendas? Not if they want it to pass and if it affects the line pilots, well, it will have to be voted on. Now most importantly, how about hording and select dissemination of information. I only have to point to all the contracts we have seen, oops summaries and items to be negotiated later. But we need you to pass it now. How about LOA93? This POS was passed with all of the above because our esteemed members of the MEC horded the exact information you claim USAPA will do. BTW. Our retirement was given away before we barely knew it. Turns out we could have saved a major portion of it. Don't you love after the fact information? All of this with the ALPA "advisor's" holding our hands saying "You have to do this". With good professional advisor's like that, who needs enemies?

The institutionalized protections contained in almost all organizations such as ALPA to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority will not be built into USAPA.

What about the tyranny of the minority? The beauty of representational blocks will allow each pilot to have a voice through the most powerful option, that is a VOTE!. Voting, what a novel concept. I have seen LEC's pass items affecting the LEC pilots. Not everyone can attend meetings. Some of us actually fly planes for a living. But yet my voice is never heard simply because I might have been working. Thanks.

Outside of that USAPA as proposed looks a lot like my west MEC. Most of the things that you use as ammunition to dump ALPA doesn't happen on the west. The membership won't allow it and restrictions such as USAPA has proposed are written policy here on the west. I see a very powerful union in the east MEC. I see it as having run wild and without regard to others and that the membership is afraid to challenge.

That may be true. A lot of very capable people I know / knew threw their hands up and said "enough". Why? As I learned from a west pilot, character assassinations and outright bullying is an accepted practice within the ALPA structure. USAPA has been accused of the same thing by the very same ALPA supporters. Well, this time USAPA is not backing down. We may not convince the entire airline of the need to change, but unless ALPA pulls a rabbit out it's collective (You know what) it will be history. And a new CBA is not going to solve anything.

I don't want to sound trite but have you guys traveled to and studied how other MECs operate? With the exception of a couple I say that most have absolutely no resemblance to the east MEC. The east apparently have written their own rules and protections and it seems that is what the average east pilot is rebelling against.

Exactly. The roll call voting on the MEC is but one example. These guys vote and pass items that I only learn about after the fact. Or have heard the spin by one party and the spin by another. Somewhere in the middle is the truth, maybe! Hard to believe, but that is what we have. At least items that are binding to all pilots affecting the "Bill of Rights" must be voted on by the membership. You know the breakdown already. Finally, we won't have one single person able to sign anything and make it binding on all pilots. For example. A past MEC Chairman and present MEC member. One person in each issue signed for something that has only come back to haunt us. And that's just recently. USAPA has proposed that no single person can do that.

If USAPA is successful then I predict it will be exactly like the current AAA MEC only about 5 times worse. The membership will have access only to information the leadership wants them to have, information will not be complete when it is disseminated, the membership will be lied to and the leadership will ensure their own agenda is accomplished without oversight. That is how I see the AAA MEC operating today. It is not how an ALPA MEC is designed to operate. The problem starts with you, your rep and all the way up to the chairman. Reform them first then lets talk about another union. I'd suggest you start with the AAA FPL and expense policy abuse. What you say happens on your property just stuns me. I had no idea one could get away with that level of outright theft from the local budget. Then go to communications and gut that committee. Next I'd suggest a reality check and then try the USAPA thing!

Sorry. It is way past too late for reformations. But your detractors for USAPA will not be 5 times worse, it will be better. I'm not going to discuss you're own MEC, but I will say there has been the same partial dissemination of information occurring there also. So, to me it's still the same. The cabals, agendas, oversight. Those items are already being planned for. We know what we've had and are planning for the very fixes you claim we can't. Reality check? With ALPA? Now that's funny. We've only scratched the surface with the MEC. Next time we can talk about National. Dating back to J.J. O'Donnell (sp?) This will be good.

I now understand why there is such an outcry for representational change on the east. The level of corruption and abuse is at levels I never believed possible.

Bob

You're just now figuring this out? ALPA is broken. It's structure is flawed. And the C&BL's are.....well......just a guess these days. But that is me and the core group of anti ALPA people dating back many years. We could see it. Too bad it took this mess to bring it all out. But we have what we have with ALPA. For now.

 

[exB717Flyer]

But your detractors for USAPA will not be 5 times worse, it will be better.

How can you be sure? I mean, really, what leads you to believe it's anything more than wishful thinking? The last union to dump ALPA (aside from external bankruptcy issues) was the APA. If you think the APA is more functional than ALPA I have some nuke plants in Iran for you to invest in. I know, because I'm also an APA member. If there was truly a better system I'm pretty sure it would've already taken the country by storm. USAPA's representational structure is no utopia.

Your argument for USAPA basically boils down to "anything is better than ALPA". This is where I guarantee you're mistaken. You will only get more of the same and get more frustrated. You'll be further frustrated when USAPA fails to deliver on its promises to dump the Nic Award (which is really what most Easties want) and achieve pay parity. Dougweiser has already stated he's only interested in Joint negotiations. Do you really think you're going to pressure him to abandon his merger "synergies" and run permanent separate operations? You're setting USAPA up for immediate failure because their goals are as unattainable as the current MEC's. Perhaps when your lawsuit fails (probably by Motion to Dismiss) you'll take another look at reality. Like it or not, the Nic Award is binding and that means coercive ways around it are illegal.

Voting for USAPA is kind of like an election where you write-in Mickey Mouse to show your disgust for the other candidates. It makes you feel good but achieves nothing. In this case, Mickey Mouse actually has a chance of winning the election. That's what you have in store.

 

[Phoenix]

Voting for USAPA is kind of like an election where you write-in Mickey Mouse to show your disgust for the other candidates. It makes you feel good but achieves nothing. In this case, Mickey Mouse actually has a chance of winning the election.

Ya know, I agree. If Mickey threw his name in the hat as a third party candidate, I wouldn't rule him out just yet. He could certainly count on a strong second place showing.

If Mickey Mouse runs then we could pay him in cheese from the Wolf Christmas holiday gift program.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

I'm not sure why you East guys hate Prater so much. He keeps buying you more delays so you can enjoy "your attrition".

Here's an uninformed question: does 'delay' itself help the east pilots? I understand that it simply delays the implementation, but does delay actually reshape the ability to bid or retain captain seats? It's such an interesting stock and flow problem.

I was operating under the assumption that delay was a chess move by the east, not a benefit in and of itself. That it gave more time for the pilot group to sow uncertainty and sell the 'we're mad as hell' story (which I kind of buy, anyway) so that it enhances bargaining in JNC or Rice talks. But that eventually delay will get tiresome and east will have to vote on a contract.

But if delay, itself, creates a benefit to some, then, obviously, I've had it wrong.

 

[N924PS]

Here's an uninformed question: does 'delay' itself help the east pilots? I understand that it simply delays the implementation, but does delay actually reshape the ability to bid or retain captain seats? It's such an interesting stock and flow problem.

I was operating under the assumption that delay was a chess move by the east, not a benefit in and of itself. That it gave more time for the pilot group to sow uncertainty and sell the 'we're mad as hell' story (which I kind of buy, anyway) so that it enhances bargaining in JNC or Rice talks. But that eventually delay will get tiresome and east will have to vote on a contract.

But if delay, itself, creates a benefit to some, then, obviously, I've had it wrong.

It benefits some but not others.

Due to Age 60 attrition on the East, a number of F/O's have been able to, once again, hold the Captain's bid they held prior to 9-11. Some pilots are also getting Captain's bids on the PHL E190, which is a Captain's job at regional - minus pay.

These positions would be going to HP pilots as a result of the Nicolau award, if it was implemented. Even it it is implemented, the pilots that upgrade now can not be displaced.

Those that do not benefit are the pilots stuck at LOA93 pay and working conditions while the ALPA-Nicolau Award, USAPA train wreck sorts itself out. So a few pilots are getting the upgrade in seat and pay, but the majority are stuck in neutral, at least until 2009 and beyond, unless they can hold an airplane with a higher pay rate.

That's the situation at the East. In the meantime, the West is stuck with their contract, which although better than the East in pay and vacation, is still way below what it should be given the profitablity of LCC.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

How can you be sure? The last union to dump ALPA (aside from external bankruptcy issues) was the APA. If you think the APA is more functional than ALPA.... I know, because I'm also an APA member. If there was truly a better system I'm pretty sure it would've already taken the country by storm. USAPA's representational structure is no utopia.

How can you? From what I understand, APA is modeled after ALPA. At least they only have themselves to represent. Maybe that is why they are still successful. Why do you think innovation has to be copied from someone else? We just might be showing the way for others to follow. Our structure will be better than what I have. True participative representation. It will be up to each of us to participate.

Your argument for USAPA basically boils down to "anything is better than ALPA". This is where I guarantee you're mistaken. You will only get more of the same and get more frustrated.

More of the same? Your assumptions have no basis. Any thing is better than ALPA! More frustrated, working to see the success of ALPA's replacement would not be frustrating at all.

You'll be further frustrated when USAPA fails to deliver on its promises to dump the Nic Award (which is really what most Easties want) and achieve pay parity. Dougweiser has already stated he's only interested in Joint negotiations. Do you really think you're going to pressure him to abandon his merger "synergies" and run permanent separate operations? You're setting USAPA up for immediate failure because their goals are as unattainable as the current MEC's. Perhaps when your lawsuit fails (probably by Motion to Dismiss) you'll take another look at reality. Like it or not, the Nic Award is binding and that means coercive ways around it are illegal.

When are you going to realise that many of the USAPA supporters have only one goal in mind, see ALPA gone. What lawsuit? By USAPA? Sorry I don't know of any lawsuits filed by USAPA. Do you mean the MEC? I already said it was a moronic thing to do. But who remembers that? You didn't. So please don't put me anywhere near what the MEC has been/is/will be do(ing)

Voting for USAPA is kind of like an election where you write-in Mickey Mouse to show your disgust for the other candidates. It makes you feel good but achieves nothing. In this case, Mickey Mouse actually has a chance of winning the election. That's what you have in store.

Why is it that ALPA supporters can't face the reality that we are a credible alternative? I think what bothers you most is we just might be on to something good here and you're afraid to consider change because it's the easy way out.

 

[exB717Flyer]

How can you? From what I understand, APA is modeled after ALPA. At least they only have themselves to represent. Maybe that is why they are still successful.

Define "successful". My point is that the APA is equally disfunctional, if not moreso than ALPA. I know this because I'm a member and I read their message board regularly.

True participative representation. It will be up to each of us to participate.

Like that old French saying, "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

More of the same? Your assumptions have no basis. Any thing is better than ALPA!

My assumptions are based on looking at all the non-ALPA unions. What are your assumptions based on? And before you think to put SWAPA on a pedastal remember that during good times almost every pilot is happy with their union while during bad times almost every pilot is unhappy with their union. SWAPA has enjoyed decades of prosperity.

When are you going to realise that many of the USAPA supporters have only one goal in mind, see ALPA gone.

I understand that. I'm simply telling you that it's a pipe dream. Your perceived problems stem not from ALPA but from within.

Why is it that ALPA supporters can't face the reality that we are a credible alternative?

Credible isn't the right word. Just like your MEC leaders deceived you I believe so too are your USAPA leaders. They're making you think things will be better. It's wishful thinking, I guarantee you.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Leaders of USAPA deceiving me? Not hardly. What is deceiving is ALPA. When we're in the campaign you can address the very questions you ask of me. Maybe I will answer them in real life. You never know.

Apparently, you and I will always disagree over ALPA. But your assumptions are incorrect. Because they are based on your past and the flawed structure of ALPA. Oh well.

 

[Phoenix]

Define "successful". My point is that the APA is equally disfunctional, if not moreso than ALPA. I know this because I'm a member and I read their message board regularly.

I know plenty of APA pilots that are excited that USAir pilots are planning on dumping ALPA and are fully supportive of the effort (they are pleased with APA and know the benefit of it over ALPA). So I can't imagine why you have such a different opinion of APA than they do. Perhaps it is that none of them worked for TWA.

 

[exB717Flyer]

I know plenty of APA pilots that are excited that USAir pilots are planning on dumping ALPA and are fully supportive of the effort (they are pleased with APA and know the benefit of it over ALPA). So I can't imagine why you have such a different opinion of APA than they do.

It's a little more complicated than that. There's a substantial movement of AA pilots to re merge with ALPA, not that I anticipate that happening anytime soon. The reasons the APA split from ALPA are long defunct. In any case, the old saying about from two pilots come three different opinions certainly holds true for APA pilots. My point being there's nothing inherently superior about the APA vis a vis ALPA. If any of the other non-ALPAs are so superior it would be self-evident.

Perhaps it is that none of them worked for TWA.

Right. Many APA guys came from regionals and many came straight from the military and thus have no perspective. As I've written, I've been a Teamster, APA, and ALPA for three different carriers. If one was superior I'd be all for it. But we both know the raison d'etre of USAPA is to right a perceived wrong. From my perspective, Prater and the EC's biggest mistake has been indulging the East's tantrum for so long. Your only problem with ALPA Merger Policy is that it didn't give you what you wanted. So like I said, the East's true problem isn't ALPA but the East itself. USAPA ain't gonna cure that.

 

[Phoenix]

... The reasons the APA split from ALPA are long defunct. .... Prater and the EC's biggest mistake has been indulging the East's tantrum...

The underlying reason for AAL's departure from ALPA are allive and well, even if their memory is lost to those who would suffer a repeat before reading the history to say "Duh. I should have read my history."

Certainly I agree that Prater's biggest mistake was trying to take the path of least resistance. He should have dropped the hammer if his position was just. Since he delayed he acknowledged that there was a sufficient reason to delay. But now that he has decided to proceed as if there was no reason to delay, he is out of graces with both sides, and has no choice except to buy back votes of confidence.

 

[Cactus737]

Why is it that ALPA supporters can't face the reality that we are a credible alternative? I think what bothers you most is we just might be on to something good here and you're afraid to consider change because it's the easy way out.

That's a good question.

First, I think you'll find that "USAPA-haters" is a more correct term than "ALPA supporters" is with our group. Sort of like how we keep making the point that you have alot more "ALPA-haters" than "USAPA supporters". Just like how Prater got elected almost excluisively by the "anybody but Duane" vote.

Second, I think "credible alternative" is the exact point that we keep debating. We don't see a bitterly divided new union that is spending it's extremely scarce resources to defend itself from an incredible legal battle as it attempts to achieve the impossible in the court system as a credible alternative. Plus, as I've pointed out before, keeping secret documents from the West pilots doesn't even give us the chance to determine for ourselves what USAPA is actually offering. That secrecy speaks for itself.

Third, your last comment about being "afraid" is completely without merit. Don't forget that it wasn't that long ago that we did almost successfully boot ALPA. In fact, I think the only reason it didn't work is because we were in the middle of Section 6 at the time. But even our most staunch AWAPA supporters, who are true proponents of independent pilot unions, have come out publicly and pledged their vote for ALPA because they see USAPA for what it is.